The Trinity

The Trinity


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Jerry Shugart

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How do you interpret this?

Rev 8:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(8:1) And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

This is not talking about the third heaven, the abode of God. The first heaven would be the sky and the second one where the stars and planets exist.

Now please answer this:

Those who exist in time are constrained by the force of time. They cannot go back in time and they cannot enter into the future or even know what will happen in the future. That concept of time cannot be denied.

The LORD is not constrained at all by the force of time since He knows the future.

Thanks!
 

Right Divider

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No

I say Spiritual as in the mystery of God in heaven, as opposed to God with us. Jesus in the Gospels.

The Spiritual reference is shorthand and trust that it is understood that Spiritual denotes things we struggle to comprehend.

Father, Son, Spirit who are/is God.

: )

I would hope you know me better than to ask that question.

#No Poly theism here
According to the Bible, God is not eliminating the earth... just bringing in a new one.
 

JudgeRightly

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This is not talking about the third heaven, the abode of God. The first heaven would be the sky and the second one where the stars and planets exist.

Now please answer this:

Those who exist in time are constrained by the force of time. They cannot go back in time and they cannot enter into the future or even know what will happen in the future. That concept of time cannot be denied.

The LORD is not constrained at all by the force of time since He knows the future.

Thanks!
Not to change the topic again, but where does the idea that God knows the future come from?

Also, Have you read the kgov time article yet?

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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This is not talking about the third heaven, the abode of God. The first heaven would be the sky and the second one where the stars and planets exist.

Now please answer this:

Those who exist in time are constrained by the force of time. They cannot go back in time and they cannot enter into the future or even know what will happen in the future. That concept of time cannot be denied.

The LORD is not constrained at all by the force of time since He knows the future.

Thanks!

In all fairness Jerry, You are scripturally sound here as Paul expressed "one caught up into the third"

But that's all on that. That is a study into itself as all scripture that compliments itself perfectly is.

Which in the end... is, again, all of it.

: )
 

Right Divider

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Revelation 21:1

What happens to the old earth and heaven according to this?

Note... "passed away" is a euphemism for "Death".

Death denotes gone.

It is the final thing to be done away with as well.

Rev 21:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(21:1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

The NEW heaven and the NEW earth REPLACE the old. Is that hard to follow?

NO death does NOT denote "gone". Death denotes SEPARATION.

When you die, your body and soul are separated.

Immediately after John speaks of the NEW heaven and the NEW earth; a NEW Jerusalem comes DOWN from heaven.

Rev 21:1-2 (AKJV/PCE)
(21:1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (21:2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The Creation will be restored to its original very good condition, like before the curse.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Not to change the topic again, but where does the idea that God knows the future come from?

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).​

However, we cannot understand the "foreknowledge of God" in a literal sense since He sees everything at once, as explained here:

"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).​
 
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Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Rev 21:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(21:1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

The NEW heaven and the NEW earth REPLACE the old. Is that hard to follow?

NO death does NOT denote "gone". Death denotes SEPARATION.

When you die, your body and soul are separated.

Immediately after John speaks of the NEW heaven and the NEW earth; a NEW Jerusalem comes DOWN from heaven.

Rev 21:1-2 (AKJV/PCE)
(21:1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (21:2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The Creation will be restored to its original very good condition, like before the curse.

Perhaps I perceive semantics in our disagreement. I anchor to where we agree.

Old is Gone. New has Come.

The word "replace", again denotes a form of removal.

When you discuss these matters, you open up the mystery of what "Eden" really was. Though initial verbiage could deny this, you are addressing the pre-death universe and the post death universe. This could spiral out far from initial, desired discussion.
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).​

However, we cannot understand the "foreknowledge of God" in a literal sense since He sees everything at once, as explained here:

"Much of the difficulty in regard to the doctrine of Predestination is due to the finite character of our mind, which can grasp only a few details at a time, and which understands only a part of the relations between these. We are creatures of time, and often fail to take into consideration the fact that God is not limited as we are. That which appears to us as 'past,' 'present,' and 'future,' is all 'present' to His mind. It is an eternal 'now'...Just as He sees at one glance a road leading from New York to San Francisco, while we see only a small portion of it as we pass over it, so He sees all events in history, past, present, and future at one glance" (Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination [Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1932]).​

In respect to analogy,

It would be like using a single location on the planet and explaining that many things occupy that location throughout time. A mini example would be 1 spot on a free way. Though millions of cars pass over that same spot, it is time that separates each car.

For us, to see every single thing that occupies one spot, without the passage of time, would appear to be like a solid object to our eyes and incomprehensible to our minds in such a way that we could not separate or understand what we were perceiving.

The mind of God, however, can look at that single spot void of time and fully comprehend what has, is, will occur.

In respects to analogy of your quoted post.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Perhaps I perceive semantics in our disagreement. I anchor to where we agree.

Old is Gone. New has Come.

The word "replace", again denotes a form of removal.

When you discuss these matters, you open up the mystery of what "Eden" really was. Though initial verbiage could deny this, you are addressing the pre-death universe and the post death universe. This could spiral out far from initial, desired discussion.
Yes, the "removal" is the curse.

Rev 22:1-5 (AKJV/PCE)
(22:1) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. (22:2) In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations. (22:3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: (22:4) And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads. (22:5) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Yes, the "removal" is the curse.

Rev 22:1-5 (AKJV/PCE)
(22:1) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. (22:2) In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations. (22:3) And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: (22:4) And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads. (22:5) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.


Instead of brawling with you over every jot and tittle, I will confess that I fully understand your verbiage now and recognize your many scriptural references that brought you there.

Some scripture off the top of my head would be 1st Corinthians 15:54-56 paralleled with Paul's authorship link to Galatians 3:10

Once these have been linked, the curse of death becomes spiritually apparent throughout scripture.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Not to change the topic again, but where does the idea that God knows the future come from?

Also, Have you read the kgov time article yet?
You don't have to get very far into that article to see the fallacious reasoning.

God Has a Past
by Bob Enyart
Most Christian theologians join countless philosophers of the last 2,500 years in saying that God is outside of time. However, if the Scriptures teach that God experiences change in sequence, that would indicate that God exists in time, in the present, with a past, and looking forward to a future. This would demonstrate that atemporality, i.e., timelessness, is not a necessary attribute of deity. So here is an example of a biblical proof demonstrating that God has a "past" and therefore falsifying the claim that God is atemporal:
Before the foundation of the world (as the Bible puts it), God the Son was not also the Son of Man; but then He "became" flesh as "the Son of Man", and so God the Son remains eternally "the Man Jesus Christ" (1 Tim 2:5).
This overtly biblical statement shows that God has a past, and therefore exists in time.
Bob's problem and yours is that you are always looking at everything from a human perspective.

God does NOT "experience" the Creation the way that WE do.

Bob's "proof" is just completely wrong based on a wrong premise. The Son of God ENTERED into the Creation AS A MAN. How ELSE could THIS happen except in the context of TIME, since time is a part of the Creation? This does NOT, in any way, prove that time exists apart from the Creation.

I also note Bob's "high sounding" use of the term "overtly biblical statement". What is that supposed to mean except that he wants to sound "smart"?

You both need to come to the understanding that God condescends to use human terms and language when communicating with humans.

P.S. Even the relationship of Father and Son in the Godhead is NOT a temporal one, like it is in the human father/son relationship.
 

Tambora

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Good answer, minor correction though:

"Heavens" in Genesis 1:1 refers to the universe, not "Heaven."

God created "Heaven" on Earth, the Garden of Eden. So when the we say that Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, it means he was cast out of Eden. Fun fact, Adam and Eve sinned on day 13 of creation.

The "Heaven" that we think of today was probably created sometime between God casting out Adam and Eve and the Flood, As the Tree of Life would have been brought up out of the Garden and into Heaven.

Question for all: Does God dwell in Heaven?

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app
Question:

If the tree of life was brought up from the garden on earth to heaven, then why the need to place an angel at the garden to bar them access?
 

Right Divider

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Instead of brawling with you over every jot and tittle, I will confess that I fully understand your verbiage now and recognize your many scriptural references that brought you there.

Some scripture off the top of my head would be 1st Corinthians 15:54-56 paralleled with Paul's authorship link to Galatians 3:10

Once these have been linked, the curse of death becomes spiritually apparent throughout scripture.
The "curse" in Galatians is not the same one as Revelation 22 or Genesis 3:17.

The creation, as a whole, is under a curse that will be removed in the future.
 

steko

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Good answer, minor correction though:

"Heavens" in Genesis 1:1 refers to the universe, not "Heaven."

God created "Heaven" on Earth, the Garden of Eden. So when the we say that Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, it means he was cast out of Eden. Fun fact, Adam and Eve sinned on day 13 of creation.

The "Heaven" that we think of today was probably created sometime between God casting out Adam and Eve and the Flood, As the Tree of Life would have been brought up out of the Garden and into Heaven.

Question for all: Does God dwell in Heaven?

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app

GOD as transcendent Being dwells alone and within nothing. If GOD dwelt in something... anything, that something would be greater than GOD. There is nothing greater than GOD.

GOD in His immanence dwells within His creation since the beginning of creation and that location is in the highest heaven. That heaven, though the highest, is still within the created universe.

Before the creation, GOD dwelt in Himself. There was no heaven to dwell in.

After creation GOD exists infinitely transcendent to the creation and at the same time exists immanently within His creation everywhere, however the dwelling place of GOD in His manifest glory/light is in the created heaven and Christ Jesus is now dwelling in that same place, expecting 'til.......
His return here.
 

Nihilo

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In respect to analogy,

It would be like using a single location on the planet and explaining that many things occupy that location throughout time. A mini example would be 1 spot on a free way. Though millions of cars pass over that same spot, it is time that separates each car.

For us, to see every single thing that occupies one spot, without the passage of time, would appear to be like a solid object to our eyes and incomprehensible to our minds in such a way that we could not separate or understand what we were perceiving.

The mind of God, however, can look at that single spot void of time and fully comprehend what has, is, will occur.

In respects to analogy of your quoted post.
I drove by a pond one clear day, and the sun was at such an angle that it was constantly glaring in through the passenger-side window, irritating the side of my vision as I drove. Even though I could only look over and see the one reflecting sun in the pond's surface, as I drove, this image followed me, and was there everywhere I was, but I could only see the image that was reflecting right at me, not the images that were reflecting parallel to me, those I had just seen and cannot see anymore, and those that I will see, as I continue to drive laterally with regard to the sun.

And from an airplane that day, the pilot would have seen that the whole pond was shimmering in the sun's glory. They could not see the image I could see as I drove along the road next to the pond. They saw their image, the one reflecting directly at the airplane's pilot, and this image is the whole pond reflecting the sun's glory, and so the pilot would have seen the outline of the pond, and not the sun's image, like I was seeing as I drove next to the pond.

I couldn't see the image of the outline of the pond like the pilot could have seen that day, from say 10,000 feet and up. All I could see was the sun, reflecting as a fiery orb, onto the pond's surface, and right into my face. The pilot couldn't have seen the orb from that height, they could have only seen the pond as a mirror, completely flushed in brilliant white light.

And that's just seeing some of the sun's reflecting light, we also can see the sun straight on, through about 14.7 lbs of air that is virtually and practically transparent to starlight and sunlight. The refractive index of air changes how the light looks, so there is another emanating cloak of light that we can see through orbiting telescopes or from spacecraft. This light is through the virtual vacuum of outer space, and it looks a little different without having to travel through 14.7 lbs of air in order to reach your eyes.

And God can see the whole radiance of the spherical sun all at once, along with all these other things I've described, like how the pilot that day could have seen the whole radiance of that pond, from the sun's light, except He sees the whole sun all at once. The God's eye view for the physical universe, moment-to-moment, is already very difficult to describe mathematically (roughly quantum and relativity) and impossible to visualize in our frontal lobes. The preceding I conjecture. I conjecture further that God's view of the passage of time is related to His view of the sun analogically, Him being able to simultaneously observe the sun from all radial angles. He must be able to do that with time too, whatever that analogy happens to be. /conjecture
 

steko

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Good answer, minor correction though:

"Heavens" in Genesis 1:1 refers to the universe, not "Heaven."

]

"Heavens" in Gen 1:1 refers to the three created heavens, of which the highest heaven is the third, the galaxies, stars and planets are the second, and our earth's atmosphere is the first.

GOD is infinite Being, transcendently dwelling in nothing but Himself.
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Question:

If the tree of life was brought up from the garden on earth to heaven, then why the need to place an angel at the garden to bar them access?

I'm going to bow out on answering this, because the theological answers and possibilities are quite numerous on both sides of the fence.

But,

Tambora questions are pretty hard to not want to answer.

#Tambora, master question-smith.

My favorite idea is that there is a thin veil that separates "Heaven" from the "Heavens" (Like the temple veil that once was) and only death allows us passage to whatever awaits us in this present age. From there, the idea is that the eternal is the tangible, while the dying is the actual intangible.

We are like babes in the womb of the carnal, striving for birth into the spiritual.

To expound on this further is to beyond the conjecture that would become super conjecture.

I am excited to see how [MENTION=16942]JudgeRightly[/MENTION] answers
 
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