The Theory of God's [lack of] Omniscience

[Ninjashadow]

You know, it just occured to me that there may be another reason God does not allow himself to know the future (or does not allow there to BE a future). If God knows the future and it removes free will, then why wouldn't he just remove evil, too? I mean because if His foreknowledge removes free will what's the point of allowing evil to exist?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by ninjashadow

You know, it just occured to me that there may be another reason God does not allow himself to know the future (or does not allow there to BE a future). If God knows the future and it removes free will, then why wouldn't he just remove evil, too? I mean because if His foreknowledge removes free will what's the point of allowing evil to exist?

Good point.

The Calvinist normally responds that evil exists so that God can show His power and therefore glorify Himself (by overcoming this evil). Yet what is the point in God showing His power and glorifying Himself if there is no potential effect on any living creature?

The only logical reason for God to show His power is to demonstrate to man that He is indeed God! And that in turn the Bible His word, and furthermore that man needs God to have eternal life.

 

[Ninjashadow]

Originally posted by Knight

Good point.

The Calvinist normally responds that evil exists so that God can show His power and therefore glorify Himself (by overcoming this evil). Yet what is the point in God showing His power and glorifying Himself if there is no potential effect on any living creature?

The only logical reason for God to show His power is to demonstrate to man that He is indeed God! And that in turn the Bible His word, and furthermore that man needs God to have eternal life.

I agree. We have free will so that we can choose to worship God or not to. He wants a personal relationship with us. So, why would he give us free will, only to take it away by knowing the future.

[You're moving me closer and closer to a full open view, Knight.]

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by ninjashadow

[You're moving me closer and closer to a full open view, Knight.]

I always knew there was hope for you.

Actually, you must always be sure to test what I say against God's word. Please rebuke me if you feel I am in error.

 

[Ninjashadow]

Originally posted by Knight

I always knew there was hope for you.

Actually, you must always be sure to test what I say against God's word. Please rebuke me if you feel I am in error.

Oh, I've been doing everything I can to find a verse or verses that clearly say otherwise, but I have yet to find one.

Now, I just thought about another thing.
Don't Calvanists think that God tests us to check our faith (like the lady in that thread of yours about Calvanism)? If that is the case and they also believe that God can exhaustively knows the future, haven't they run into a contradiction of sorts? I mean, if God knows the future exhaustively then He already knows whether you'd pass the test or not, so what's the point then?

 

[Emo]

Originally posted by ninjashadow

Now, I just thought about another thing.
Don't Calvanists think that God tests us to check our faith (like the lady in that thread of yours about Calvanism)? If that is the case and they also believe that God can exhaustively knows the future, haven't they run into a contradiction of sorts? I mean, if God knows the future exhaustively then He already knows whether you'd pass the test or not, so what's the point then?

Exactly, why take a test when someone other than yourself has already predetermined whether you fail or not? What would be the point of prayer as well? For me, prayer strengthens & deepens my relationship with God. Why do Calvinists waste their time praying if they don't even know that they are saved. How can one truly dive into a love relationship with God when they aren't even sure that it is real? God desires an intimate relationship with His creation. Why not? He didn't seek to destroy mankind again, instead He has made the incomparable sacrifice & has given mankind the amazing gift of grace. I love God all the more for His grace that I don't even deserve. Christ can set you free, make you righteous & the Holy Spirit is there to sanctify you. The work is done. The key is to lose yourself. Salvation is for everyone & who shall take that away from God. No one!

 

[Ninjashadow]

I agree. I think the most important aspect of free will is the fact that we can choose to have a close, personal relationship with God. Had Jesus not had free will (if God knew the future, then one could assume that Jesus would also fall into the same problems humans have as far as losing free will by God's forknowlege. Does that make sense?) his sacrifice may not have seemed as great. But instead, Jesus CHOSE to die the horrible death to save all mankind. He even said he could have God send down a legion of angels, but he did not becuase he chose to show is love for us by sacrificing his life.

 

[Emo]

I'm very tired :yawn:
Maybe I'll jump back on this thread tomorrow.

God Bless ninjashadow

 

[Ninjashadow]

Later emo. My last post before this one on here may be a bit confusing in parts. I'll have to reword it. Goodnight.

 

[freelight]

omni-gnosis

omni-gnosis

Hello all,


I recall exploring a similar thread some time ago....where some wonderful dialogues came forth ....concerning the nature of time/eternity....and the dimensions thereof. Omniscience has always been a wonderful postulate......having many qualifiers by various schools of thought.

My recent theocentric studies have gone into the realm of 'being' and 'consciousness' - a kind of theontology. If we hold that God has omni-qualities.....we do so because He is OMNI.....as there is nothing that exists outside of Him....and He encompasses the All that IS....the entirety of Existence.....being the Sole Original Intelligence/Being/Reality in which all things/beings inhere. We naturally assign God omni-qualities because of this native sense of his All-ness.....He being the One and Only....besides whom there is no other.

The logics in the more traditional fields of theology and biblical represenations have been made here by Knight, 1 Way, godrulz and others....which indeed do have their soundness within their own domains. I concur with much of their logics within the paradigms involved.

I have naturally always felt that free will was native to my being. It appears to be an innate feature of consciousness itself. Consciousness is free to perceive/conceive/imagine what it wills within the matrix of its own intentions/desires/constitution.

Ninjashadow,..............there appears no need for God to know how the future will absolutely unfold......for He cannot know the unknowable. He may plan, intend, orchestrate, prepare and choose to execute His will within His own powers.....while still allowing free will creatures their freedoms within the parameters allotted by divine Providence. The future does not exist in actuality....but only in Mind. The future does not need to be known by God....but only His Will(intentions). His own divine powers will see that His Will is satisfied. In like manner.....this component of power is in Man but to a lesser degree...as mediating his souls station and destiny - man may will to do Gods Will....or will to the contrary to the detriment of his own soul. The wonders of will(thelema) is a thread in itself.

The assumptions of the 3 omni's of God can be challenged and while some aspects of these are held as 'absolute'....they are often relative and with so many qualifications. God can know all because He is the very Being in which all things/beings are ever arising and inhereing. There is nothing that exists outside of the ONE...and this one Mind/Intelligence therefore knows all that is transpiring NOW...within Consciousness (this naturally includes every knowable dimension of real existence/actuality.....and all potentials).

It has been thought that God risked alot to have free will creatures be truly free to choose their own destinies...as some may apparently choose to go the way of darkness and suffering. Here we enter into the paradox of free will vs. divine Will....and the prospect of creature free will having its own sovereignty. I have leaned towards the sovereignty of free will....only as it affects the condition of the soul individually...while truly divine Will remains ever Supreme. However,....I have recently held to a more universalist view....that ultimately....divine Will will prevail....in all dimensions of being. This is even more feasible when considering the All-ness of God and His Supremacy of Being thru-out the Entirety of Existence. (maintaining the 3 omni's as absolute).

So....I take things beyond the norm....exploring and pioneering in fields of my current interests. First I would start with the statement that 'God is All' and stick with exploring this every way. Then....I would proceed with the 3 omni's......this thread being omniscience....the all-knowingness of Deity. Nothing exists outside of ALL. So this may help to expand your field of consciousness.

Its wonderful that God is ever knowing all that is transpiring from moment to moment in the effulgence of the influx of what is ever be-ing and be-coming in the LIGHT. Only that which is Light can be seen and known....as what is transpiring moment to moment in Consciousness is known and being known as it actualizes/transpires in the Nowness that IS. This is the only actual reality that IS. The past is past, the future is Not. Only Now IS. Therefore.......the future is eternally open. Life is forever in evolutional fluxation. Sure there are some things that are percisely willed by the divine to take place...and such will unfold by the powers that be in their own time. But the wonder of our future horizons are ever before us.....and there ever lies infinite potential within the powers that be (in all being and consciousness).

We forever have NOW. Now is the only immediate reality being.....the rest is conjecture/projection/memory/idea/conception, etc. Consciousness IS.....forever being the Alive Awareness wherein all these conceptions take place and are intellectualized/reasoned out. But when all is said and done....this Intelligent Awareness is what is ever being - the 'I AM'. In the end of all mortal creations.....there will only be the I AM....the glorification/revelation of the true One Identity, the Mind that is God.

God is all-knowing...for the All is ever cognizant of that which is transpiring within him - all potentials and actuals in existence.



paul

 

[Clete]

freelight,

The Bible seems to pretty clearly depict God as not knowing everything; even some current events which He apparently chose not to pay any attention to (Gen 18:21). The text also makes it quite clear that there are some locations where God is not present either. So it is my belief that the Biblical evidence seems to most strongly support the position that God is where He wants to be when He wants to be there and knows what He wants to know when He wants to know it. The only qualification to this that of rationality; that is, God cannot go to a place that does not exist, even if He wants to, nor can He know the unknowable, etc.

Is there any Biblical support for your thesis that "there is nothing that exists outside of Him....and He encompasses the All that IS....the entirety of Existence.....being the Sole Original Intelligence/Being/Reality in which all things/beings inhere"? It's a very pious sounding thing to say but I'm not at all certain its Biblical.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[freelight]

omni-Light

omni-Light

Originally posted by Clete

freelight,

The Bible seems to pretty clearly depict God as not knowing everything; even some current events which He apparently chose not to pay any attention to (Gen 18:21). The text also makes it quite clear that there are some locations where God is not present either. So it is my belief that the Biblical evidence seems to most strongly support the position that God is where He wants to be when He wants to be there and knows what He wants to know when He wants to know it. The only qualification to this that of rationality; that is, God cannot go to a place that does not exist, even if He wants to, nor can He know the unknowable, etc.

Hi Clete,

I was never impressed by Gen 18:21 as being substancial but a dictation from human perspective/perception....not Gods.
It may be seem reasonable that God can do as He pleases within the parameters of liberty deemed sound to mans reason. However, I have been exploring another perspective of who and what God IS.......and it is quite far from human inventions and prescriptions of orthodox religion....and the traditional interpretations of holy writ. I concur that God can only be present in the Existential and can of course...only know the knowable. I have been approaching God thru the modalities or qualities of 'Being' and 'Consciousness'....and coming from these perspectives may modify or alter some interpretations of how we view the omni's of God. So....our definition/understanding of God Him/Her/ItSelf and divine nature will influence our conclusions/logics.

Originally posted by Clete
Is there any Biblical support for your thesis that "there is nothing that exists outside of Him....and He encompasses the All that IS....the entirety of Existence.....being the Sole Original Intelligence/Being/Reality in which all things/beings inhere"? It's a very pious sounding thing to say but I'm not at all certain its Biblical.

You are assuming that something must be 'biblical' to be true - this is understandable in your tradition/logic of thought....but unnecessary....as so much is loaded into what is perceived as 'biblical' and all the underlying suppositions within such a statement. But asides from those relative views.......do you suppose that something exists outside of God? Does not the whole of All that IS exist within the Infinity of God? Does not God encompass the Entirety of Existence?

My current reflections have been exploring Theos in terms of 'being' and 'consciousness' - these I find are the most direct experiencial and real portals to direct access to Reality as it presently IS. I am amazed to find the spiritual journey always in motion.....as God is truly dynamic. How we define/understand and intuit God affects everything doesnt it?

The journey is most wondrous....and certainly in my experience extends beyond yet surely includes traditional, orthodox fields of theology and metaphysics. It just so happens that the traditional, orthodox constructs are not necessarily perfect.....so I find myself probing the dimensions of God, who I see as the very Ground of Being and the very Seat of Consciousness Itself. All explorarions of mind and spirit inhere in these two aspects of Reality.

In summary.....we may suppose that God knows all...because He is All! 'God' in my current View and at present is knowing all because He is the only Being in which all being exists...and the Only Consciousness that IS the Whole of All Awareness NOW. As far as God IS and in that expanse/entirety...is divine Recognition. He is Light...is He not? In the LIGHT....ALL things are manifest to Him. He knows all actuals and potentials in existence....because He is the Only Consciousness that IS. (all light, revelation, gnosis, perception exists because God is LIGHT...and in that light....there is nothin hidden from him). - of course one may surmise that God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge of actualities as they may transpire in the future....but He nevertheless knows all potentialities in existence...thru-out Eternity.

You may answer the above questions if you desire to explore.


paul

 

[Clete]

Oh, brother! Paul, are you a homo or something? If you are, just tell me so I can go throw up and get it over with. :vomit:

One things for certain, you're not even remotely close to being a Christian. Why do you even pretend to be one? Pretty much nothing you believe is compatible with Christian doctrine or practice! It makes no sense! You make no sense! You're a nut! :freak:

Resting in Him,
:Clete:

P.S. I am convinced enough that you are a homo that anything other than a straight forward denial (including no response at all) will be accepted as a response in the affirmative.

 

[freelight]

non intelligent response

non intelligent response

Originally posted by Clete

Oh, brother! Paul, are you a homo or something? If you are, just tell me so I can go throw up and get it over with. :vomit:

One things for certain, you're not even remotely close to being a Christian. Why do you even pretend to be one? Pretty much nothing you believe is compatible with Christian doctrine or practice! It makes no sense! You make no sense! You're a nut! :freak:

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I am convinced enough that you are a homo that anything other than a straight forward denial (including no response at all) will be accepted as a response in the affirmative.

Clete,

Apparently your reaction tells us enough.....aside from the name-calling and your usual fixation against 'homos'(hmmm... where does this come from?) .......that you are only concerned with your 'Christian doctrine' and not interested in exploring God, but your own familiar concepts of 'God'. (or does it just seem so?) This is unfortunate if so.....but each must be true to their own paths of discovery.

I have never pretended to be a 'christian' or anything for that matter. I have earlier in my evolution identified more with certain orthodox notions/ideologies(call them 'christian if you will)....but Spirit has always been leading into other dimensions of study.....ever expanding consciousness. God is dimensionless and Infinite is He not? If so.....imagine the frontiers available.

Truth remains AS IS.....and awaits exploration. Those interested with what has been laid out so far and the dimensions beyond may engage respectfully.




paul

 

[godrulz]

Revelation> reason and speculative philosophies.

The Holy Spirit leads into truth. Our subjective spirits may or may not perceive truth. There are also false, deceiving spirits (demons) who pull us from truth. We need discernment and the objective, authoritative Word of God. Freelight has some vain philosophies that sound enlightening to him (and confusing to the rest of us). What we need is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Way, the Truth, and the Life (not endless fanciful ideas that are not grounded in space-time revelation from the heart and mind of God).

 

[freelight]

other views............

other views............

Originally posted by godrulz

Revelation> reason and speculative philosophies.

The Holy Spirit leads into truth. Our subjective spirits may or may not perceive truth. There are also false, deceiving spirits (demons) who pull us from truth. We need discernment and the objective, authoritative Word of God. Freelight has some vain philosophies that sound enlightening to him (and confusing to the rest of us). What we need is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Way, the Truth, and the Life (not endless fanciful ideas that are not grounded in space-time revelation from the heart and mind of God).

Hi gr,

Did you know that many the world around would find your beliefs vain?...and the whole subsets of christian doctrine as 'myth' at best. Lets look at things universally and weigh them in the Light. The charge of vanity is relative eh. Or....like the Preacher says...perhaps all is vanity.....(especially some religious doctrines, no doubt).

Isnt it quaint how a somewhat seasoned TOL member as 'freelight' who is exploring other views of 'God' as God actually exists in the realm of being and consciousness...is now called a 'homo' (and a 'nut')by another TOL member for presenting perspectives that he deems 'nonsense' because it doesnt fit into his christian model of what is bibilically correct? I find it a novelty how one becomes a homosexual by expressing views of God that are unconventional...and you and others by their silence appear to approve of this persons manners...because after all....he is for the most part....a biblically correct (ha) christian like you....so heaven forbid you upset the apple cart. But hey,...who knows....maybe such is actually appropriate christian behavior? who would have known. {btw,.....Clete and I have had our sharings in the past[mostly cordial if I recall]....and my general demeanor/manners towards all speak for themselves as do the words of all members of the Board}.

Actually there are many schools of thought in the vein I have been re-exploring as of late....and these exist and thrive quite well within their own domains of understanding Deity.......just as well as many more traditional/orthodox schools of thought exist and thrive in their own belief systems.

Be it known that there is more than just what any one system of belief or religious school can offer a student ......and he may afford himself the liberties to pursue his true soul interests. However....if one is content with his packaged truth and collection of doctrines...then this is fine. Truth which is divine BEING....exists All Alone....and forces Itself on no one....for it is the Unchallenged Self. Of particular I have been including the teachings of Alfred Aiken as a special interest in my meditations. These writings deal directly with Absolute Truth. If any are interested in more info. about the writings -

http://www.hillierpress.com/

Allen White also has a 'God is All' webpage with various resources of similar teachers/teachings on the Absolute.

http://home.att.net/~allen.white2/

I have presented another dimension and perspective in which God may be recognized as being....when we consider the 3 omni's so heralded by traditional religious thought. In the case of omniscience...... I have already affirmed that I have agreed with much of what some posters have shared.(nuff said there). If any wish to explore with me more of the added dimension of the Allness of Deity.....I have simply offered an open dialogue. Perhaps I will begin my own thread on 'Truth' soon. I know in the past I have been more of a responder to already established dialogues.


If any wish to correspond....you may private message me if preferred....or If Spirit wills....a new thread on "what is truth?" may be forthcoming.

ta ta,

paul

 

[Clete]

Re: non intelligent response

Re: non intelligent response

Originally posted by freelight

Clete,

Apparently your reaction tells us enough.....aside from the name-calling and your usual fixation against 'homos'(hmmm... where does this come from?) .......that you are only concerned with your 'Christian doctrine' and not interested in exploring God, but your own familiar concepts of 'God'. (or does it just seem so?) This is unfortunate if so.....but each must be true to their own paths of discovery.

I have never pretended to be a 'christian' or anything for that matter. I have earlier in my evolution identified more with certain orthodox notions/ideologies(call them 'christian if you will)....but Spirit has always been leading into other dimensions of study.....ever expanding consciousness. God is dimensionless and Infinite is He not? If so.....imagine the frontiers available.

Truth remains AS IS.....and awaits exploration. Those interested with what has been laid out so far and the dimensions beyond may engage respectfully.




paul

I'll take that as a "Yes, I'm a homo!" :vomit:

Repent or spend eternity in Hell. That's all the spiritual truth you need to know at the moment.



godrulz,

Paul here is not acquainted with the truth nor with sound reason, he is not interested in the truth nor is he interested in God or anything that resembles God. I strongly recommend not casting your pearls before this particular pig. (But you can, of course, use your own judgment.)

Resting in Him,
:Clete:

 

[freelight]

attitudinal adjustments........

attitudinal adjustments........

The Truth shall ever Be regardless of who writes or what is written.

For those who wish to explore the infinite dimensions of BEING....let that joy be theirs.

It not in freelights interest to continue with one so belligerent and impolite....for such is illogical and unfruitful.

So you are forgiven for the judgments of 'homo', 'nut' and 'pig'. Remember the universal law of compensation? (with what measure you judge you will be judged/ what one sows that he shall reap)....and 'if you have done it to the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me.' It is frightening that one who is supposedly a christian can get away with this kind of treating of others while other so-called christians sit by and share in the crime by their silence. Appalling. I am sure apologies are in order....and due......if Love is truly the ruling Spirit in those involved......but.....I guess the tree shall reveal its fruit in due time.

I am sorry that those subscribed to this thread had to endure Cletes outburst and ill mannerisms. But he alone is responsible for his words.....for by such we shall be judged before the throne of Truth.

I would wish that this thread no longer be used for the display of attitudes and manners that are incompatible with the Spirit of Christ.

Clete, you may private message me personally to make amends(instead of on the thread)....for it is a grave thing to present your gift (or your self) to the altar of God without first making it right with your fellowmen. With that,....I wish good will here and peace among us. - for this is why Christ appeared - unless that was in vain.....and slaying each other with words is really what christianity is all about. Enough is enough. You either have love and integrity with your fellowman(neighbor) or you are at odds with God. No exuses avail.

Now, onto better things,


paul

 

[Clete]

Paul,

I'm not saying this to be funny or to play some sort of game with you. You really do disgust me (and God for that matter).
Your "love" is hypocrisy in motion! You hate God and everything that has anything to do with Him! And I like King David, hate those who hate the Lord God. Interestingly, this hatred happens to be the most loving thing in the world that anyone could do toward you! You think that you're just fine! You think that you and God are buddies! And I'm here to tell you that you are not fine and God has set himself against you, He is your biggest enemy and your worst nightmare! If you think I'm ugly rude and disturbing, wait until you stand before the living God who can throw both body and soul into eternal Hell fire!

Again I say to you, REPENT! Fall on your face before the true God and accept His death as payment for your filthy lies and gross perverted sin, or else you will find yourself before a powerful, vengeful and angry God who will make you pay the due penalty for your perversions yourself.

Resting in Him,
:Clete:

 

[Lighthouse]

freelight-
I sincerely hope you find God, but you haven't yet. His Spirit testifies to me that you are without Him.