The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

[glorydaz]

By grace---it is purely the grace of God that saves anyone.
Through faith----believing and trusting in the person and work of Jesus, is necessary
Which is the gift of God. In His grace He gives the faith. Otherwise faith would be something we have to come up with ourselves.

No, faith is not something we come up with ourselves.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Romans 10:17

 

[glorydaz]

Of course grace is a gift---it is undeserved. But that grace comes through faith, and faith itself is a gift. You are simply splitting hairs.

You should listen to what Derf says, instead of brushing it aside.

Eternal life is the gift being spoken of in Eph. 2. If you don't get that part, you won't get the rest.

 

[glorydaz]

Do turning from sin, getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and remaining faithful unto death sound "onerous"?

Faith will lead one to do the afore mentioned things.
I'm just glad we no longer have to do the "works of the Law" that Paul preached against.

Getting water baptized is a work.
Turning from sin is a work.
In fact, you've got your work cut out for you.

What about your present sins?
What happens if you don't remain faithful unto death?

 

[glorydaz]

How is that death accomplished?
Rom 6:3-6 tells us..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Our death for our sins is accomplished by our immersion" into Christ and into His death...by water baptism.

No, Paul is talking about being baptized by the Holy Spirit into Christ. It's a spiritual baptism because we are a spiritual people.

1 Corinthians 12:13

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

I agree.
But murderers, adulterers, liars, and any other kind of miscreant will not inherit eternal life.
No matter what they believe.

Nope, according to scripture...

1 Cor. 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The doctrine of "do nothing to be saved" simply leads to a life spent refusing to reject temptation.
It is counter-productive.
Refusal to kill, commit adultery, lie, and steal, etc. will count toward our salvation.
As those who don't refuse show they have no faith.

Nope. Those who are saved through Paul's Gospel have eternal life already.

We believe unto righteousness...as simple as that. Salvation is a gift. You can believe it or leave it.

For some odd reason, you assume those who have been saved by grace are left on their own to fight off sin and the devil.
Rather, we have the whole armour of God, and we are far from helpless.

 

[Derf]

Do turning from sin, getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and remaining faithful unto death sound "onerous"?

Faith will lead one to do the afore mentioned things.
I'm just glad we no longer have to do the "works of the Law" that Paul preached against.

That's not what I imagined when you said "so many things".

 

[glorydaz]

By grace---it is purely the grace of God that saves anyone.
Through faith----believing and trusting in the person and work of Jesus, is necessary
Which is the gift of God. In His grace He gives the faith. Otherwise faith would be something we have to come up with ourselves.

Maybe if I make it real obvious, you won't laugh.

Your statement in red is incorrect. There is an answer that is neither "He gives the faith" or "faith would be something we have to come up with ourselves". Both your possibilities are incorrect. Try again. I'll wait.

 

[Arial]

No, that faith is not a gift of God.

Here are some exact quotes.
NIV For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith----and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
NLV God saved you by His grace when you believed. And you can' take credit for this; lt is a gift of God.
ESV For by grace yu have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.

The gift of God is eternal life.

How do we get this eternal life? Through faith in the person and work of Jesus. Eternal life is part of salvation so why are you splitting hairs?

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The avenue by which we receive this eternal like if faith in the person and work of Jesus. Splitting hairs and playing word games.

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

What do you think I mean by the person and work of Jesus?

 

[glorydaz]

Here are some exact quotes.
NIV For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith----and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God
NLV God saved you by His grace when you believed. And you can' take credit for this; lt is a gift of God.
ESV For by grace yu have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.

I don't care how many translations you put up, that verse still will not say what you want it to.

You're trying to force your understanding of the word "IT".

Do you know how to diagram a sentence. If so, you should notice that grace and faith are both objects of a preposition and cannot be the subject of this sentence. So what is the subject of this sentence? What is this sentence about? The subject and "It" are the same thing.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:How do we get this eternal life? Through faith in the person and work of Jesus. Eternal life is part of salvation so why are you splitting hairs?The avenue by which we receive this eternal like if faith in the person and work of Jesus. Splitting hairs and playing word games

How do we get this eternal life? Through faith in the person and work of Jesus. Eternal life is part of salvation so why are you splitting hairs?

It's called rightly dividing the word....for truth. If we keep using your method, we'll never find truth.

What do you think I mean by the person and work of Jesus?

Whatever you might mean by that, it has nothing to do with the verse under discussion. You've made that verse say what it isn't saying.

 

[Hoping]

Let me try it this way: grace and faith are two completely different things.

Agreed, as one is a characteristic or attribute of God and the other is an action or condition of its owner.

Though in the case of saving faith they go hand in hand. Faith in the person and work of Jesus is necessary for salvation. It is because of God's grace that He gives us faith.

I'ld say...because of God's grace we have faith.
I don't believe He "gives" it to some and not to others.

We do not have that faith originating within us.

I disagree, as it is a reaction to things out side of us.

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, (1 Cor 2:13-14; John 6:63) and requires the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So these things though distinct, occur congruently.

Don't you think the devil can tell who has the gift of the Holy Ghost?
He doesn't have the Spirit in him so your POV can't be right.
I feel that if a man has faith in what is presented to him, ie gospel, teachings, course of action; he will do what is necessary to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Like the 3000 at Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost.

The rebirth (indwelling of the Spirit), faith to believe the gospel, justification.

Faith is belief.
And rebirth is far more than just receiving the Holy Ghost.

Rightly dividing: orthotomeo (Strong's) To cut straight, to cut straight ways. proceed on straight paths, hold a straight course.
Splitting hairs: to make petty, unnecessarily fine distinctions and quibble over them.

Some things that seem like "splitting hairs" may be "finetuning" to others.

 

[Hoping]

We depend on Him when we are saved. And that dependance comes from the faith and is part of the faith.

As I don't believe salvation will be assured till we hear our names are in the book of life on the day of judgment, I will depend on Him until my last moment on earth without regard for my final determination.

 

[Hoping]

Nope... Paul NEVER writes to the body of Christ that we should get wet.

Acts 19:4-5 says..."Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."
So he does indeed tell men to "get wet".

Christ cleansed me by His blood. That's the only cleaning that I need.

Me too, unless further sin shows I had not really repented of sin.
We can't build a relationship with God that is based on our lies.

No water ceremony for the body of Christ. Paul says that there is ONE baptism and it's NOT water.

There is only one baptism God does, but men do another.
That doesn't even take into account the other 5 or 6 baptisms listed in the bible.

He can't.

I agree, a dead man can't commit sin.
What we fail to agree on is that our (water) baptism into Christ provides our death, burial, and being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
The crucified man, with his affections and lusts, cannot rise again. (Gal 5:24)

You need the reread Romans.

I am no longer a sinner, thanks to the grace of God who supplied the doctrine of baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Why didn't your doctrine provide the same grace?

 

[Hoping]

No.
No it isn't. You call it force, I call it grace.
Well plenty of people besides me believe, but that aside, do you believe? Is that because poured His grace over you, or is it because you were smart enough to make the right choice?

I believed because I was sick of sin and would do anything to stop doing them.
When I heard the doctrine which is according to Godliness being preached, I got baptized that night and received the gift of the holy Ghost some days later, manifested by speaking in tongues.

Are you sure about that, or did it just feel that way to you because you are a human and think like a human and can only see things, (like all humans) from a human perspective?
So His grace was the message, not love itself?

He supplied the message because He loves us.

Yes choosing is a work if that choosing is of a person's own volition that acquires salvation for them.

So much for grace alone.

We do not choose to have faith.

Then it is forced onto you.

In my doctrine a person is given the faith, then they hear the gospel, or it is given to them when they hear the gospel, and when they hear it, they believe it. Then they choose Christ to worship and follow.

Does anyone who has been given faith ever choose to continue in sin, instead of love and follow God?

 

[Hoping]

Nope. Believing is something that happens to us when we are presented with truth.
If I look outside and see it's raining....thus believing it's raining....is that something I do?

Of course not.

You made a decision based on something you sensed.
You believed your senses.
You were not given belief that it was raining and then saw it was raining.

 

[Hoping]

That's not what I imagined when you said "so many things".

There is the enduring faithfully till the end too.
That may involve the loss of your family and friends.
Maybe even a job or home.
It will certainly involve the change of character that those with a new nature exhibit.

 

[Hoping]

No, Paul is talking about being baptized by the Holy Spirit into Christ. It's a spiritual baptism because we are a spiritual people.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

That didn't answer my question about how your death was accomplished.

Nope, according to scripture...
1 Cor. 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I call that an accommodation for sin.
It is not of God.

Nope. Those who are saved through Paul's Gospel have eternal life already.

I don't agree.

We believe unto righteousness...as simple as that. Salvation is a gift. You can believe it or leave it.

I won't usurp the judgement of God by claiming I have something not yet awarded.

For some odd reason, you assume those who have been saved by grace are left on their own to fight off sin and the devil.
Rather, we have the whole armour of God, and we are far from helpless.

How is that working for you?

 

[Hoping]

Getting water baptized is a work.
Turning from sin is a work.
In fact, you've got your work cut out for you.

Plus the grace and new nature to resist the devil so he flees from me.

What about your present sins?
What happens if you don't remain faithful unto death?

There are no "present sins".
More sin would manifest that my repentance from sin was a lie to God.
We can't build a relationship with God that is based on our lies.
If I don't remain faithful till the day of judgement, I will be sent to the lake of fire.
Thankfully though, Jesu gave us the word sin John 8:32-34..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
I know the truth, and it made me free from committing sin.
Thanks be to God !

 

[glorydaz]

You made a decision based on something you sensed.

I made a decision based on hearing the preaching of the Gospel.

You believed your senses.

No, I believed the Gospel.

You were not given belief that it was raining and then saw it was raining.

I didn't say I was. I saw it was raining and believed what I saw.

In the same way, I heard the Gospel message of salvation, and believed what I heard.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't believe you. What you're preaching is some kind of odd mixture of law and grace.

Plus the grace and new nature to resist the devil so he flees from me.

There are no "present sins".
More sin would manifest that my repentance from sin was a lie to God.
We can't build a relationship with God that is based on our lies.
If I don't remain faithful till the day of judgement, I will be sent to the lake of fire.
Thankfully though, Jesu gave us the word sin John 8:32-34..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
I know the truth, and it made me free from committing sin.
Thanks be to God !

So you don't believe what John says here? And you have no assurance of salvation?

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 2:3-4
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[glorydaz]

That didn't answer my question about how your death was accomplished.

I did answer, but I'll be happy to elaborate.
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

We are baptized BY THE SPIRIT into Christ.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

I call that an accommodation for sin.
It is not of God.

Oh dear. You're denying scripture. You need to check yourself, and you can do that by believing what the word says quite clearly.

I don't agree.

I won't usurp the judgement of God by claiming I have something not yet awarded.

Then you're in the company of the Jews. They, too, will have to wait.

How is that working for you?

The armor of God? Beautifully, just as God intended.

The helmet of salvation is a present reality for those in the body of Christ.
But you go ahead and wait. Perhaps you'll eventually endure long enough.

 

[Right Divider]

Acts 19:4-5 says..."Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."
So he does indeed tell men to "get wet".

Again your imagination is driving your "understanding".
Paul did not TELL anyone to get water baptized. Paul was describing what John the Baptizer was doing.
Verse 5 is about what those that heard JOHN did.

Me too, unless further sin shows I had not really repented of sin.

Nonsense. You sin whether you know it or not.

There is only one baptism God does, but men do another.

You are a double-minder person. In the body of Christ there is ONE baptism and there is NO water involved.

That doesn't even take into account the other 5 or 6 baptisms listed in the bible.

Indeed, baptism is NOT just water.

I agree, a dead man can't commit sin.
What we fail to agree on is that our (water) baptism into Christ provides our death, burial, and being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)

There is NO water in Romans 6. Again, you imagination and your belief in falsehoods controls you.

I am no longer a sinner, thanks to the grace of God who supplied the doctrine of baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Why didn't your doctrine provide the same grace?

I am not controlled by sin, that does not mean that I never sin.

Your doctrine is confused. You do not understand figures of speech.