The Real Science Radio Caveman Show

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Why should species be straightforward? If evolution is true, all organisms are constantly in flux. A species is simply a population that happens to be distinct from some other populations at a particular point in time. Biology is not straightforward, in general. That would be math. :p
Using definitions that assume the truth of your religion is no way to do science.
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
Using definitions that assume the truth of your religion is no way to do science.
Again, that would be you.

Didn't read my link did you? You assume specially created kinds (aka holobaramins) exist when there is no evidence to say they do.


Failure to Qualify as a Scientific Hypothesis

Friar states that:

"The goal of baraminology is to characterize holobaramins."

The goal then, is to identify Biblical "kinds" and to describe all of the organisms comprising them. So creationists begin with the assumption that "kinds" exist, in light of scientific evidence to the contrary. They have not tested – nor do they ever intend to test – the question of whether holobaramins actually exist. In fact, Friar deliberately avoids listing the assumptions of their model entirely. The reason is obvious when you read the "guidelines" for practicing bariminology:

"Scripture claims (used in baraminology but not in discontinuity systematics). This has priority over all other considerations."

So scripture tells them that "kinds" exist, and they have only to describe them. This is a critical piece of information – it means that they will never, ever admit that "kinds" do not exist. Ever. This is contrary to the way science is conducted – a scientific theory or hypothesis must be potentially falsifiable. That is, there must be a test or tests that, if confirmed, would deny the validity of the hypothesis or theory, and scientists must be willing to part with hypotheses if enough evidence exists that rejects them. In phylogenetic analysis, tree building methods are judged based on, among other criteria, how well they perform when assumptions are violated and whether they alert us when assumptions are violated (Penny et al. 1992) But creationists have no intention of ever testing the vital assumption that "kinds" exist, and since scripture has priority over all other considerations, it is evident that they would dismiss any evidences suggesting that "kinds" do not exist.

 

Flipper

New member
Our struggles to classify animals due to lack of knowledge does not change the nature of the definitions we use.

And you've probably never seen a unicorn either, but we have a really great definition of all the characteristics a unicorn would have. Perhaps unicorns are real too.
 

OMEGA

New member
Lucifer was given the job along with his many Angel Scientists

to genetically Engineer Mankind and animals. He realized that they

would eventually be more important than he was and he destroyed

all the Life on this planet by causing a moon of Mars to hit Mars and

cause its Asteroids to come down and hit the Earth and make Oceans

and push up Mountains. God went to another planet and developed

Humans and animals and came back and put them on the Earth.

Here is one of the amazing birds that God created.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjE0Kdfos4Y
 

voltaire

BANNED
Banned
I have a visitors comment from you that says different.

How long has it been since I was angry with you? You want me to be more precise? Barbarian is the only one who consistently gets me angry and has done so for a longer period of time than anyone else. Satisfied now, or are you going to make another sarcastic comment that is meant to slander me?
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Didn't read my link did you? You assume specially created kinds (aka holobaramins) exist when there is no evidence to say they do.

Your link brings nothing to the discussion where we are.

The definition I have is solid and immutable. There is no room for equivocation.

It matters not that I assert this as the definition I will use. I need little evidence to show that "Kind" is clearly defined and "Species" is vague and malleable.

All this has been covered. What you need to do is concede the point, and perhaps we can move on....
 

One Eyed Jack

New member
And you've probably never seen a unicorn either, but we have a really great definition of all the characteristics a unicorn would have. Perhaps unicorns are real too.

They are.

230px-Indian_Rhino_Image.jpg


I present Rhinoceros unicornis.
 

Letsargue

New member
They are.

230px-Indian_Rhino_Image.jpg


I present Rhinoceros unicornis.



Why, OH, Why!!!!! Don't these ~~christians~~ know what the "UNICORN" WAS????? -- THEY ARE CHRISTIANS, OR ARE THEY???

The "UNICORN" was Jesus riding into Jerusalem on the donkey!! - SEEE!! - That was a colt with the "ONE HORN", -- The One Horn being, The ONE KING!!!!! --- That's the only UNICORN that ever existed, and it was REAL IN PARABLE!!! -- That's the ONLY WORD EVIDENCE anywhere in Scripture, therefore, that has to be the Truth!!

Paul -- 060912
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
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And you've probably never seen a unicorn either, but we have a really great definition of all the characteristics a unicorn would have. Perhaps unicorns are real too.

:AMR:

Are you stoned?
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
All this has been covered. What you need to do is concede the point, and perhaps we can move on....
Yes, we've been over how wrong and moronic you are by asserting you're right over and over without supporting evidence.

You don't even have the ability to list a number of creatures that belong to your "kinds". I can certainly do that with clades and many species and give you the reasons for their grouping.

You don't have a point to concede. Saying something over and over doesn't make it true. You must live in some alternative reality.
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
They are.

230px-Indian_Rhino_Image.jpg


I present Rhinoceros unicornis.

Somehow I don't think that, matches this:

baby-unicorn-small.jpg


Unicornis just means "one horned", it's a rhino that happens to have one horn instead of two.

Besides, we don't call these unicorns and they're obviously related. (maybe Stripe could tell us if they're the same kind!)

black-rhinoceros-7.jpg


White-Rhino.jpg


Of course rhinos obviously share some characteristics with extinct animals like this . . .

640px-Indricothere_CAS.jpg


If having one horn-like projection is the only definition of a unicorn, this is one too:

narwhals.jpg
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
I'm afraid it doesn't meet the precise definition, which I haven't quite got around to providing you with yet.
The precise definition found in the Bible?

Oh, wait, the Bible never says what it means when referring to a unicorn. Of course, it is only an English translation that uses that word, so what did the original word, in the original language mean?

Go ahead...
sonictap01.gif
 

Flipper

New member
:AMR:

Are you stoned?

Just making the perfect analogy for your argument regarding kinds. I knew you wouldn't get it because you have trouble with reading for comprehension and also with abstract thought.

Let's see if I can put it in a way that you might actually get...

Oh, I know!

:mock: Stripe
 

Flipper

New member
The precise definition found in the Bible?

Oh, wait, the Bible never says what it means when referring to a unicorn. Of course, it is only an English translation that uses that word, so what did the original word, in the original language mean?

Go ahead...
sonictap01.gif

Apparently Lighthouse didn't get my analogy either. And yet, everyone else understood it immediately.

You're in appropriate company, Stripe. Oh wait, I need to be clearer, don't I?

Stripe :loser:
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Apparently Lighthouse didn't get my analogy either. And yet, everyone else understood it immediately.

You're in appropriate company, Stripe. Oh wait, I need to be clearer, don't I?

Stripe :loser:
Your analogy sucks because you used a term that doesn't mean what you think it means.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Just making the perfect analogy for your argument regarding kinds.

What argument?

The fact is that "Kind" is clear and well defined. The fact is that "Species" is vague and malleable.

There is no argument.

That you atheists are arguing with me betrays your blind devotion to evolutionism.

:mock: Flopper.
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
Your analogy sucks because you used a term that doesn't mean what you think it means.
No, Flipper's reference makes sense in context. Modern popular culture has a great definition of unicorns. The point being, you can define something that doesn't actually exist quite well. Unfortunately nothing like them exists or has ever existed.

If there is an animal that was the basis for unicorn legends, it was likely this (An extinct rhino called Elasmotherium) The size and shape of the horn has to be inferred from the skull since rhino horns are not bony and do not preserve well (though there is a huge bony base where a horn would presumably be):

640px-Elasmotherium_%22Thin_Plate_Beast%22.jpg


Sidenote: The hebrew word found in the old testament, re’em sometimes translated as "Unicorn", probably referred to aurochs, the wild progenitors of modern cattle based on a similar word in Assyrian.
 

voltaire

BANNED
Banned
No, Flipper's reference makes sense in context. Modern popular culture has a great definition of unicorns. The point being, you can define something that doesn't actually exist quite well. Unfortunately nothing like them exists or has ever existed.

If there is an animal that was the basis for unicorn legends, it was likely this (An extinct rhino called Elasmotherium) The size and shape of the horn has to be inferred from the skull since rhino horns are not bony and do not preserve well (though there is a huge bony base where a horn would presumably be):

640px-Elasmotherium_%22Thin_Plate_Beast%22.jpg


Sidenote: The hebrew word found in the old testament, re’em sometimes translated as "Unicorn", probably referred to aurochs, the wild progenitors of modern cattle based on a similar word in Assyrian.


Modern paleontologists aren't the only ones in history to go around investigating and pondering the meanings of ancient bones. Stone age and bronze age man probably found tyranosaurus rex bones and inferred a dragon. Similarly, they probably dug up the beast pictured here and imagined a much frailer looking animal called a unicorn.
 
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