The ONLY Biblical answer to The Age of Accountability

[Clete]

Yes, we die because our physical bodies are made of living materials that will inevitably die, just as plants, animals, fish and other living biologic forms on earth die because Adam introduced sin into the world.

Prove it.

This notion is a common Christian belief but I see no evidence for it in scripture. There no evidence that animals didn't eat other animals nor is there any evidence that animals were intended to be immortal. And, if Adam and Eve were created immortal, then what was the idea behind the creating a Tree of Life, never mind placing it in Eden!

How about the food Adam and Eve (not to mention all the animals) were to eat in Eden, would it die?
If Adam ate a banana, it would not somehow still be alive in it's masticated state - never mind after spending a day in Adam's belly!
Not only that but fruit is purpose built to give the seeds something to "eat" when the fruit falls from the tree. All the meat in an apple is there to nourish the offspring of the tree when the seeds germinate. It is, in effect, designed to "die"!

Why do people believe such things? Seems like any child could think this through!

 

[Clete]

Sorry Clete, but that's going a bit too far.

Okay, remove the word "completely".

 

[marke]

I can see you don't like where we ended up, that a baby dies because of someone else's sin, but let's probe deeper. All those animals you've mentioned also die as a result of Adam's sin. And while an animal can sin to a point deserving of death, mostly we don't think they sin, right? But they, most being innocent, still die because of Adam's sin.

Job and his friends were rebuked by God for claiming that the suffering Job was undergoing was because of his sins.

Babies do not die because God is judging them for sins, they die because they are human.

 

[Derf]

What I refuse to acknowledge is the implication that there is some moral responsibility for Adam's sin that we've inherited from him. That is NOT true!
By your logic, every baby that's been chopped alive into pieces by the abortionists DESERVED what they got!
Worse than that, you believe that GOD believes that they deserved what they got!

That's not just false, its blasphemy! God is NOT unjust! How is it even possible that those four words aren't enough to persuade you away from such a monstrously false doctrine? What exactly are you getting out of believe this that you cling to it so tightly that not even an entire chapter of the bible that is SPECIFICALLY about this precise topic can persuade you even an inch away from it?

I never said they deserved it. Show me where, if you think I did. But if you can extrapolate my words to think I believe the babies are somehow morally culpable, despite the fact I argued against it to both you and @marke, it makes me wonder where else you've extrapolated meaning well beyond its intention, like in your understanding of God's word, perhaps? Just beware of such tendency.

 

[marke]

Prove it.

This notion is a common Christian belief but I see no evidence for it in scripture. There no evidence that animals didn't eat other animals nor is there any evidence that animals were intended to be immortal. And, if Adam and Eve were created immortal, then what was the idea behind the creating a Tree of Life, never mind placing it in Eden!

How about the food Adam and Eve (not to mention all the animals) were to eat in Eden, would it die?
If Adam ate a banana, it would not somehow still be alive in it's masticated state - never mind after spending a day in Adam's belly!
Not only that but fruit is purpose built to give the seeds something to "eat" when the fruit falls from the tree. All the meat in an apple is there to nourish the offspring of the tree when the seeds germinate. It is, in effect, designed to "die"!

Why do people believe such things? Seems like any child could think this through!

OK. For sake of argument I will not insist Adam's sin affected plants. But I believe there is reason to believe that animals were not eaten before the fall, by humans or by animals.

This passage from Genesis 1 implies that humans and animals were originally herbivores.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

 

[Derf]

Job and his friends were rebuked by God for claiming that the suffering Job was undergoing was because of his sins.

Babies do not die because God is judging them for sins, they die because they are human.

And humans die because of Adam's sin. Therefore, if C (babies die) was the result of B (humans die), and B was the result of A (Adam's sin), then C resulted from A.

Why is this concept so difficult? Don't add other concepts, let's just deal with this one: babies die because Adam sinned.

 

[marke]

And humans die because of Adam's sin. Therefore, if C (babies die) was the result of B (humans die), and B was the result of A (Adam's sin), then C resulted from A.

Why is this concept so difficult? Don't add other concepts, let's just deal with this one: babies die because Adam sinned.

I keep insisting we maintain the fact that babies die because of the mortality imposed upon all humans because of Adam but that babies do not die for their sins or for the sins of Adam as if God judges babies and condemns them because of Adam. You are wrong if you are unwilling to maintain that distinction.

 

[Derf]

I keep insisting we maintain the fact that babies die because of the mortality imposed upon all humans because of Adam but that babies do not die for their sins or for the sins of Adam as if God judges babies and condemns them because of Adam. You are wrong if you are unwilling to maintain that distinction.

You can dance around the fact all day long, but you just keep reiterating my point--babies die because of Adam's sin. If Adam had not sinned, both he and everyone else who never sinned would probably still be alive. Since it's not recorded history, I don't know if that's how it would work, but it seems likely.

 

[Derf]

Babies do not die because they are guilty of any sin - especially Adam's!

I never said they were. Remember this thread is about accountability, right? About whether someone might receive punishment for something they didn't understand they were doing wrong? I'm saying there's more to it, since some (babies) receive punishment for something they didn't even do. Until you resolve that, the accountability question is moot.

And death is the punishment God threatened Adam with for disobeying Him. And so death passed to all men (mankind).

 

[marke]

You can dance around the fact all day long, but you just keep reiterating my point--babies die because of Adam's sin. If Adam had not sinned, both he and everyone else who never sinned would probably still be alive. Since it's not recorded history, I don't know if that's how it would work, but it seems likely.

I agree. Babies die because Adam brought sin into the world. Adults die for the same reason. Old people die for the same reason. Everyone dies for the same reason. So what? Everyone dies. Big deal.

 

[marke]

I never said they were. Remember this thread is about accountability, right? About whether someone might receive punishment for something they didn't understand they were doing wrong? I'm saying there's more to it, since some (babies) receive punishment for something they didn't even do. Until you resolve that, the accountability question is moot.

And death is the punishment God threatened Adam with for disobeying Him. And so death passed to all men (mankind).

If you claim God punishes humans for sins they did not commit then you either do not understand God or you do not understand the punishment of God and its causes and purposes.

 

[Right Divider]

Okay, remove the word "completely".

Or replace it with "slightly", perhaps.

 

[Clete]

I never said they deserved it. Show me where, if you think I did. But if you can extrapolate my words to think I believe the babies are somehow morally culpable, despite the fact I argued against it to both you and @marke, it makes me wonder where else you've extrapolated meaning well beyond its intention, like in your understanding of God's word, perhaps? Just beware of such tendency.

You were the one who said that we are all suffering from a curse due to Adam's sin, or something along those lines.

Basically, you're here defending the doctrine of original sin, which is a disgusting doctrine that is not biblical and that is an insult to the God who is Himself the very definition and fountainhead of justice.

 

[marke]

You were the one who said that we are all suffering from a curse due to Adam's sin, or something along those lines.

Basically, you're here defending the doctrine of original sin, which is a disgusting doctrine that is not biblical and that is an insult to the God who is Himself the very definition and fountainhead of justice.

The proper interpretation of original sin is that all babies are born in sin because of the sin nature passed down from Adam, but no baby is under the wrath of God reserved for sinners who cold-heartedly reject the Light God so freely bestows on them by His Spirit when leading them to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.

 

[Clete]

Or replace it with "slightly", perhaps.

It's worse that slightly outdated. It's difficult to read and follow even for people, like myself, who have been a Christian their entire lives. I can't imagine the effort that an uninitiated person would have to put into reading it.

Here's something I just pulled out at random from the KJV, it's the first chapter of Hebews....

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,​

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;​

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:​

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.​

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?​

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.​

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.​

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.​

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.​

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:​

11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;​

12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.​

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?​

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?​

Now compare that with the NKJV...

Hebrew1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.​

​

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:​

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?​

And again:​

“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?​

​

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:​

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”​

​

7 And of the angels He says:​

“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”​

​

8 But to the Son He says:​

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”​

​

10 And:​

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”​

​

13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:​

“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?​

​

14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?​

​

There are surely passages that would give even a more stark difference but that one will do. It isn't just the antiquated words and phrasing but also the fact that the KJV doesn't use paragraphs but instead starts each verse on a new line which makes it not only harder to actually read but makes the thoughts harder to follow.

It's antiquated. It's usuable in a pinch but there isn't hardly a modern translation that isn't easier to read and understand for normal daily usage by the normal Christian.

 

[Derf]

It's worse that slightly outdated. It's difficult to read and follow even for people, like myself, who have been a Christian their entire lives. I can't imagine the effort that an uninitiated person would have to put into reading it.

Here's something I just pulled out at random from the KJV, it's the first chapter of Hebews....

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,​

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;​

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:​

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.​

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?​

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.​

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.​

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.​

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.​

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:​

11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;​

12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.​

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?​

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?​

Now compare that with the NKJV...

Hebrew1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.​

​

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:​

“You are My Son,​

Today I have begotten You”?​

And again:​

“I will be to Him a Father,​

And He shall be to Me a Son”?​

​

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:​

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”​

​

7 And of the angels He says:​

“Who makes His angels spirits​

And His ministers a flame of fire.”​

​

8 But to the Son He says:​

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;​

A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.​

9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;​

Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You​

With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”​

​

10 And:​

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,​

And the heavens are the work of Your hands.​

11 They will perish, but You remain;​

And they will all grow old like a garment;​

12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,​

And they will be changed.​

But You are the same,​

And Your years will not fail.”​

​

13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:​

“Sit at My right hand,​

Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?​

​

14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?​

​

There are surely passages that would give even a more stark difference but that one will do. It isn't just the antiquated words and phrasing but also the fact that the KJV doesn't use paragraphs but instead starts each verse on a new line which makes it not only harder to actually read but makes the thoughts harder to follow.

It's antiquated. It's usuable in a pinch but there isn't hardly a modern translation that isn't easier to read and understand for normal daily usage by the normal Christian.

You would have hated the original Hebrew (no vowels or punctuation or chapter or verse) or Greek (no punctuation, chapter, or verse), if you don't like missing the paragraphs.

 

[Derf]

You were the one who said that we are all suffering from a curse due to Adam's sin, or something along those lines.

Are you saying death is not a curse or a suffering? Or are you saying God originally planned for us all to die?

Basically, you're here defending the doctrine of original sin, which is a disgusting doctrine that is not biblical and that is an insult to the God who is Himself the very definition and fountainhead of justice.

Calling it names doesn't really make the doctrine any more or less true. I don't hold to the part of original sin where nobody has the ability to respond to the gospel unless God first regenerates him, but I do hold to the part where everybody needs a savior.

Are you saying there are people out there that don't need a savior? Is that more biblical than what I wrote?

 

[Derf]

I agree. Babies die because Adam brought sin into the world. Adults die for the same reason. Old people die for the same reason. Everyone dies for the same reason. So what? Everyone dies. Big deal.

I know, right? Why did God make such a big deal about Jesus dying.

If you claim God punishes humans for sins they did not commit then you either do not understand God or you do not understand the punishment of God and its causes and purposes.

Is death a punishment?
Genesis 2:17 KJV — But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Sounds like one to me. But let's just say it's just some natural consequence of sin, and not a punishment, so God was warning Adam because He knew the consequences (even though God knew the consequences because He designed creation that way). Does that make it ok that babies who haven't sinned also die? Doesn't that cheapen God's explanation of the consequences to Adam, if He were to say, "If you eat of that tree, then you will die, but if you don't eat of that tree, you will still die?"

 

[marke]

It's worse that slightly outdated. It's difficult to read and follow even for people, like myself, who have been a Christian their entire lives. I can't imagine the effort that an uninitiated person would have to put into reading it.

Here's something I just pulled out at random from the KJV, it's the first chapter of Hebews....

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,​

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;​

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:​

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.​

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?​

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.​

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.​

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.​

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.​

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:​

11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;​

12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.​

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?​

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?​

Now compare that with the NKJV...

Hebrew1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.​

​

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:​

“You are My Son,​

Today I have begotten You”?​

And again:​

“I will be to Him a Father,​

And He shall be to Me a Son”?​

​

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:​

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”​

​

7 And of the angels He says:​

“Who makes His angels spirits​

And His ministers a flame of fire.”​

​

8 But to the Son He says:​

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;​

A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.​

9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;​

Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You​

With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”​

​

10 And:​

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,​

And the heavens are the work of Your hands.​

11 They will perish, but You remain;​

And they will all grow old like a garment;​

12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,​

And they will be changed.​

But You are the same,​

And Your years will not fail.”​

​

13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:​

“Sit at My right hand,​

Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?​

​

14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?​

​

There are surely passages that would give even a more stark difference but that one will do. It isn't just the antiquated words and phrasing but also the fact that the KJV doesn't use paragraphs but instead starts each verse on a new line which makes it not only harder to actually read but makes the thoughts harder to follow.

It's antiquated. It's usuable in a pinch but there isn't hardly a modern translation that isn't easier to read and understand for normal daily usage by the normal Christian.

If the KJV wording is too difficult for some, they have lots of other versions to choose from. Consider The KJV wording of John 2:19:

KJV
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.


NCV
Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will build it again in three days.”

NLV
Jesus answered them, “Destroy this house of God and in three days I will build it again.”

VOICE
Jesus: You want a sign? Here it is. Destroy this temple, and I will rebuild it in 3 days.

CEV
“Destroy this temple,” Jesus answered, “and in three days I will build it again!”

ERV
Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple and I will build it again in three days.”

 

[marke]

I know, right? Why did God make such a big deal about Jesus dying.

Is death a punishment?
Genesis 2:17 KJV — But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Sounds like one to me. But let's just say it's just some natural consequence of sin, and not a punishment, so God was warning Adam because He knew the consequences (even though God knew the consequences because He designed creation that way). Does that make it ok that babies who haven't sinned also die? Doesn't that cheapen God's explanation of the consequences to Adam, if He were to say, "If you eat of that tree, then you will die, but if you don't eat of that tree, you will still die?"

I am not following your argument. Adam died as soon as he ate the fruit. He was not immediately buried because his death was not physical but spiritual. When an innocent baby dies it is physical, not spiritual. Have you put these two facts together yet? I am not seeing it if you have.