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Read Rev 22
The ONLY Biblical answer to The Age of Accountability
- Thread starter Clete
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Derf
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What curse do you think Rev 22 is referring to?
[Rev 22:1 KJV] And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
[Rev 22:2 KJV] In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.
[Rev 22:3 KJV] And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Is it a generic banishment of all curses, or does it address the reversing of a specific curse? If a specific curse, it doesn't seem to be the one where the ground was cursed--at least there's no evidence for it in that passage.
If it's the curse of death, that would make some sense, since death is thrown into the lake of fire two chapters earlier, not too long before New Jerusalem is described, which Rev 22:1-3 seem to be a part of. Vs 1 references a river of life, and vs 2 references a tree of life, whose leaves are for the healing of the nations.
If it is the curse of death (assuming death is a curse, which I would think is the case), then it suggests we are still under that curse, but with the promise of resurrection, which nullifies the curse for us, in our minds for now, but in our eternal lives later.
Derf
Well-known member
And babies must be saved from death.
Which words are you having trouble with? I didn't use the word "hell". But even before the word shows up in scripture, death is described as man's destiny. "Hell" is a distraction. The main issue is death, which is, indeed, God's punishment for the sin of Adam.
Yet the people He said that to all died. You need to read that passage in some context.
[Jhn 11:25 KJV] Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
[Jhn 11:26 KJV] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
The part you quoted comes after the part where those that are dead will live (will be resurrected), and then those that live (have been resurrected) will never die again. The first death will be overcome, and then death will be destroyed so that we can't die anymore, as long as we believe Jesus is Lord.
That may or may not be true. If all sin is disobedience to God, and God won't tolerate disobedience--eventually making His will to be done on earth as it is in heaven.
You don't think sickness, disease, deformities, accidents, murder, etc., are caused by sin? Were they part of God's "very good" creation?
I'm saying Jesus came to save us from the first death, which He accomplished. We know this because He tells us everyone will be resurrected. The serpent in the garden of Eden brought death to mankind through his temptation. But God promised a savior who would crush the serpent's head, and be at enmity with the serpent's seed. What is the serpent's seed, but death? He (the serpent, or Satan) has been a murderer from the beginning, causing the death of all men, but Jesus crushed his head on the cross and in His resurrection. That's why Jesus came--to save us from that first death.
Derf
Well-known member
Your flesh is still going to die.
I'm sure the doctrine gets distorted sometimes, but the reason for the doctrine is this:
[Rom 5:15 KJV] But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
[Rom 5:18 KJV] Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
[Rom 5:19 KJV] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
[Rom 5:21 KJV] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
I agree that Jesus has already provided that salvific act, even if death hasn't yet been completely defeated yet.
Romans 5 is about how even the one who sins will not bear his own guilt. Why would you jump to Rom 7 and Ez 18?
They are all going to die. If Jesus saves us from death through resurrection, then they are all subject to the punishment for Adam's sin.
Indeed!
Nobody will escape physical death.
In what way does God punish the sons of Adam for the sins of Adam?
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Does God hate sinners for being born in sin? Is God going to kill every last sinner on earth because He is determined to judge them all for Adam's sin?
Luke 12:46-48
King James Version
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
If God delights in making sinners sick because of Adam's sin, then why did Jesus heal so many who were sick?
God did not save any of the 12 Apostles from the first death.
Do you really believe that Peter, James, John, Luke, Paul and Jude would have written letters to their friends and colleagues in a language that had vowels and punctuation but just chose not to use them? Why would he have done that?
No! They obviously would not have done that. The removal of vowels and punctuation was not a common practice between normal people doing normal hand written communications. It's was a technique used by scribes who wanted to accurately copy and preserve a valued manuscript.
We are too far apart here.
Why did I "jump" to Romans 7? Romans 7 isn't but a couple of pages away from Romans 5. It's not exactly a big jump!
Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
...which is true because....
Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
Ezekiel 18 puts the lie to the entire idea of original sin - period. WE ARE NOT PUNISHED FOR ADAM'S SIN - period. So says God Himself.
Ezekiel18:4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
5 But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;
9 If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!”
Says the Lord God.
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Now, that's the ultimate doctrinal trump card, Derf. You've got your doctrine and I've got the words coming out of God's own mouth. If Ezekiel 18 doesn't convince you then understand that you are worshiping a God that you actively believe and teach is unjust by God's own definition of justice! Why anyone would be willing to be in such a situation, I cannot understand. That person has issues that I have no ability to fix.
(The individual verses referenced here are intended as an abreviated reference to the passages in which they contained.)
Right Divider
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I believe that the curse that Rev 22 refers to is the same one in Gen 3
They both refer to the creation: one at the start (or shortly thereafter); and one at the restoration.
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Derf
Well-known member
Then it wouldn't be accurately copying and preserving the manuscript. Vowels are part of the manuscript, if they are in the original writing. Can you give examples of any biblical texts, or even non-biblical texts where this was done?
Derf
Well-known member
Could be. But since the curse in Gen 3 was about tilling the ground, and was a curse on the ground, and Gen 7 said it God wouldn't do it anymore, it seems like the removal of it in Rev 22 isn't necessary.
Genesis 3:17-19 KJV — And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Genesis 8:21 KJV — And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
And according to @Clete, as long as I have scripture in my post, then you have agree with my interpretation.
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Right Divider
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I believe that the curse of the "ground" is about a lot more than just "tilling the ground".
Derf
Well-known member
You're probably right. But can you show the congruencies in Rev 22 And Gen 3 to prove your point?
Right Divider
Body part
I think that we've gone a bit off-topic. Perhaps some other time.
Derf
Well-known member
Everybody will escape physical death. It's called "resurrection". Nobody except those alive when Jesus returns will AVOID physical death.
Your citation speaks of death as the penalty for sin. In suggesting that infants, especially those who die in the womb, receive the penalty for sin, death, even though they haven't sinned, even so if death is the penalty for sin, and they die without sinning, then they must be dying (are condemned) because of someone else's sin. Rom 5 tells us who's sin it is.
Romans 5:16 KJV — And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
No. Jesus came into the world to save sinners, including those that haven't had time to sin yet.
I guess that's one way to look at it. I think it's more that He has ALREADY judged them all for Adam's sin. But He's also going to raise every last sinner on earth from the dead, because Jesus defeated death.
I never said God "delights" in either sickness or death, even if the wicked.
Ezekiel 18:23 KJV — Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
That's why He sent Christ to defeat death, along with sickness. Yet He hasn't yet effected that final healing on us.
Romans 5:8 KJV — But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Not yet. Stay tuned...
John 6:39 KJV — And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 11:14
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Are sickness and death the result of God's judgment against sin in every case? Hardly.
John 9:1-3
King James Version
9 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
You say Jesus came into the world to save sinners, and that is what He did. If He came into the world to save sinners and did die for the sins of the world then why do sinners still die today?
Derf
Well-known member
And? How did he escape? He was resurrected.
So you think babies being torn apart in the womb for the convenience of the mother's career is for God's glory? That's a morbid point of view.
Because He hasn't returned to finally defeat death yet. But He has promised that will happen one day.
Revelation 21:4 KJV — And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
This is future event that we can be assured will come to pass. That's what faith is about.
Don't be stupidly ridiculous. I never said anything like that.
Derf
Well-known member
I don't understand your point, here. If course he was dead before he was resurrected! You can't be otherwise!
Then please explain why you quote a verse about the works of God being manifest by blindness from birth, as if it applies to all cases of sickness and death?
Can you give ANY evidence that normal people wrote Greek without vowels?
No, you can't. That's why you ignore the point.
By the way, there was no such thing as punctuation at all in ancient Greek, nor did they leave spaces between words. They did, however, have vowels and would have used them in regular correspondence. There is exactly zero reason to believe otherwise.
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