The ONLY Biblical answer to The Age of Accountability

[marke]

Marke is a fool. Ignore anything he says about babies sinning from the moment of their birth. He believes his doctrine, not the bible.

Here is how the NKJV translates Psalm 58:3

The wicked are estranged from the womb;
They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.

 

[Derf]

Let me just say it is unscriptural to claim the son shall bear the iniquity of the father as some imagine David's son did.

It's a little funny that you say that after I showed something that refuted it. If the wages of sin is death, and someone dies, then it must be the result of someone's sin. If a baby dies in the womb, before he has a chance to sin, then it must be because of someone else's sin, not the baby's.

I recommend people do not try to interpret the Bible in such a way that contradicts what the Bible says.

I agree. But that's why we have conversations like this, so that if we are wrong, we can be corrected. Let me make that personal: 1. So that if I am wrong in my interpretation, I need to be corrected. 2. So that if you are wrong in your interpretation, you need to be corrected.

Do you agree?

If God says the wicked begin lying as soon as they emerge from the womb then I am just 'gullible' enough to believe God.

In what way does a baby who can't talk lie? Is it by crying when he doesn't need anything, or by being silent when he does need something? Maybe that phrase is hyperbole, like what Jesus used when he said if someone doesn't hate father or mother, then he can't be His disciple.

Are you supposed to hate your father and mother? Do you hate your father and mother?

 

[marke]

It's a little funny that you say that after I showed something that refuted it. If the wages of sin is death, and someone dies, then it must be the result of someone's sin. If a baby dies in the womb, before he has a chance to sin, then it must be because of someone else's sin, not the baby's.

In Adam every sinner will die once because of inherited sin but no sinner dies the 2nd death because of another person's sin. Babies inherit the sin of Adam and the sentence of death that goes along with it.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I agree. But that's why we have conversations like this, so that if we are wrong, we can be corrected. Let me make that personal: 1. So that if I am wrong in my interpretation, I need to be corrected. 2. So that if you are wrong in your interpretation, you need to be corrected.

Do you agree?

Yes.

In what way does a baby who can't talk lie? Is it by crying when he doesn't need anything, or by being silent when he does need something? Maybe that phrase is hyperbole, like what Jesus used when he said if someone doesn't hate father or mother, then he can't be His disciple.

My wife and I raised 8 babies. They come forth from the womb sinners, not saints. I have no reason to believe God worded Psalm 58:3 incorrectly.

Are you supposed to hate your father and mother? Do you hate your father and mother?

I am commanded by God both to love my parents and to hate my parents. When I have trouble understanding God's 'dark sayings,' I simply go to Him and ask for Him to show me what He means. I believe I do understand what it means to hate everyone else when it comes to ignoring or dismissing them if they interfere with my duty to please and serve God.

5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

Proverbs 1
6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

 

[Derf]

If you're willing to live with this kind of blatant contradiction and worship a God that does unjust things, whether you give His justice lip service or not, then there isn't any point in discussing this any further with you because you worship a god that you've made up and that does not exist. If this sort of contradiction can exist in your doctrine, what sort of contradiction isn't permitted? No rational discussion is possible when one party permits contradictions to be accepted as truth.

Besides, the notion that God holds a man responsible for the sins of his father is so repugnant to the actual God that does exist, that He had a whole chapter of the bible written specifically to squash that completely insulting idea.

You didn't deal with any of my examples. How about you just deal with the death of David's son. David deserved death, according to the law. Instead, he was allowed to live, and his innocent newborn sin died--because of David's sin.

Here's the whole chapter in a nutshell...

"The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."​

Go ahead and read all of it and see if it doesn't directly contradict your doctrine.

I have no doubt that God is just. But I doubt whether we always understand His justice. Ez 18 doesn't negate the fact that all die, even some in the womb, because of Adam's sin. If I had died as an infant, it would have been because of Adam's sin.

Let me know if it persuades you. When that happens, we can continue our discussion.

Ezekiel 18:1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:​

‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,​

And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?​

3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.​

4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;​

The soul of the father​

As well as the soul of the son is Mine;​

The soul who sins shall die.​

5 But if a man is just​

And does what is lawful and right;​

6 If he has not eaten on the mountains,​

Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,​

Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,​

Nor approached a woman during her impurity;​

7 If he has not oppressed anyone,​

But has restored to the debtor his pledge;​

Has robbed no one by violence,​

But has given his bread to the hungry​

And covered the naked with clothing;​

8 If he has not exacted usury​

Nor taken any increase,​

But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity​

And executed true judgment between man and man;​

9 If he has walked in My statutes​

And kept My judgments faithfully—​

He is just;​

He shall surely live!”​

Says the Lord God.​

10 “If he begets a son who is a robber​

Or a shedder of blood,​

Who does any of these things​

11 And does none of those duties,​

But has eaten on the mountains​

Or defiled his neighbor’s wife;​

12 If he has oppressed the poor and needy,​

Robbed by violence,​

Not restored the pledge,​

Lifted his eyes to the idols,​

Or committed abomination;​

13 If he has exacted usury​

Or taken increase—​

Shall he then live?​

He shall not live!​

If he has done any of these abominations,​

He shall surely die;​

His blood shall be upon him.​

14 “If, however, he begets a son​

Who sees all the sins which his father has done,​

And considers but does not do likewise;​

15 Who has not eaten on the mountains,​

Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,​

Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife;​

16 Has not oppressed anyone,​

Nor withheld a pledge,​

Nor robbed by violence,​

But has given his bread to the hungry​

And covered the naked with clothing;​

17 Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor​

And not received usury or increase,​

But has executed My judgments​

And walked in My statutes—​

He shall not die for the iniquity of his father;​

He shall surely live!​

18 “As for his father,​

Because he cruelly oppressed,​

Robbed his brother by violence,​

And did what is not good among his people,​

Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.​

19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.​

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?​

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.​

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?​

30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”​

The only way for this to have anything to do with an infant dying is for you to agree with @marke that an infant is already guilty of being a robber, or an adulterer, or an idolator.

 

[marke]

The only way for this to have anything to do with an infant dying is for you to agree with @marke that an infant is already guilty of being a robber, or an adulterer, or an idolator.

You err by not making any distinction between sins of ignorance and willful sins. According to Numbers 15 God makes provision for the atonement of sins of ignorance and according to Mark 3 Jesus' propitiation is sufficient for the atonement of all sins but one. According to a proper understanding of passages like Numbers 15 and Mark 3 no infants who die will be condemned for committing willful sins.

Did Job's sons and daughters die for Job's sins or for their own? Do miscarriages occur because of a mother's or father's sins or for the baby's sins? No, we cannot make such assumptions. When people die they die because they were born in sin and thus have bodies subject to death. There may also be spiritual judgments of God involved but we are out of bounds in most cases if we assume God is executing judgment against willful sin in the matter. When some people die they die in God's favor and no judgment against willful sin is involved, and nobody is condemned to death by God for someone else's sins.

 

[Derf]

You err by not making any distinction between sins of ignorance and willful sins. According to Numbers 15 God makes provision for the atonement of sins of ignorance and according to Mark 3 Jesus' propitiation is sufficient for the atonement of all sins but one. According to a proper understanding of passages like Numbers 15 and Mark 3 no infants who die will be condemned for committing willful sins.

Did Job's sons and daughters die for Job's sins or for their own? Do miscarriages occur because of a mother's or father's sins or for the baby's sins? No, we cannot make such assumptions. When people die they die because they were born in sin and thus have bodies subject to death.

Because of Adam's sin. We all are subject to death because of Adam's sin. All of us. No assumptions needed. Death is the wages of sin, it's not what God originally designed for us.

There may also be spiritual judgments of God involved but we are out of bounds in most cases if we assume God is executing judgment against willful sin in the matter. When some people die they die in God's favor and no judgment against willful sin is involved, and nobody is condemned to death by God for someone else's sins.

Everyone, as expressed above, is subject to death, or death is appointed unto everyone, because of Adam's sin. Even babies in the womb who have done nothing wrong. If that's not being condemned to death for someone else's sin, I don't know what else would be.

 

[marke]

Because of Adam's sin. We all are subject to death because of Adam's sin. All of us. No assumptions needed. Death is the wages of sin, it's not what God originally designed for us.

Everyone, as expressed above, is subject to death, or death is appointed unto everyone, because of Adam's sin. Even babies I'm the womb who have done nothing wrong. If that's not being condemned to death for someone else's sin, I don't know what else would be.

The Bible speaks of two deaths, the first death is physical and the second death is in the lake of fire. Everyone will die physically but not everyone will die the 2nd death. Nobody goes to the lake of fire for Adam's sin.

 

[Derf]

The Bible speaks of two deaths, the first death is physical and the second death is in the lake of fire. Everyone will die physically but not everyone will die the 2nd death. Nobody goes to the lake of fire for Adam's sin.

I didn't say they did. I said we all die due to our ancestor Adam's sin. Is there a reason you can't acknowledge that, just like @Clete can't seem to?

 

[marke]

I didn't say they did. I said we all die due to our ancestor Adam's sin. Is there a reason you can't acknowledge that, just like @Clete can't seem to?

All living things on earth die because of Adam's sins but no living thing on earth goes to hell because of Adam's sins.

 

[Derf]

All living things on earth die because of Adam's sins but no living thing on earth goes to hell because of Adam's sins.

Then you believe as I do...that we die because of someone's sin other than our own.

 

[marke]

Then you believe as I do...that we die because of someone's sin other than our own.

Yes, we die because our physical bodies are made of living materials that will inevitably die, just as plants, animals, fish and other living biologic forms on earth die because Adam introduced sin into the world.

 

[Clete]

Here is how the NKJV translates Psalm 58:3

The wicked are estranged from the womb;
They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.

Irrelevant.
There is exactly nothing you can say that even begins to overcome the fact that the English language has changed to a degree that makes the KJV completely outdated and obsolete.

 

[Clete]

You didn't deal with any of my examples.

If Ezekiel 18 is the truth then your examples are moot, as is your entire position and argument.

I have no doubt that God is just. But I doubt whether we always understand His justice. Ez 18 doesn't negate the fact that all die, even some in the womb, because of Adam's sin. If I had died as an infant, it would have been because of Adam's sin.

No, it would not have been. God DOES NOT execute babies because of Adam's sin! So says God Himself through His profit Ezekiel, not to mention the Apostle Paul (Romans 5).

The only way for this to have anything to do with an infant dying is for you to agree with @marke that an infant is already guilty of being a robber, or an adulterer, or an idolator.

How so?

I dare you to demonstrate the logic that arrives at such a ridiculous conclusion!

Go ahead, make the argument!

 

[Derf]

If Ezekiel 18 is the truth then your examples are moot, as is your entire position and argument.


No, it would not have been. God DOES NOT execute babies because of Adam's sin! So says God Himself through His profit Ezekiel, not mention the Apostle Paul (Romans 5)


How so?

I dare you to demonstrate the logic that arrives at such a ridiculous conclusion!

Go ahead, make the argument!

Because babies die, and death is the result of sin. If it's not the baby's sin, then it must be someone else's.

 

[Derf]

Yes, we die because our physical bodies are made of living materials that will inevitably die, just as plants, animals, fish and other living biologic forms on earth die because Adam introduced sin into the world.

Thank you. That's what I was saying. Therefore the innocent die because of someone else's sin.

 

[Right Divider]

Irrelevant.
There is exactly nothing you can say that even begins to overcome the fact that the English language has changed to a degree that makes the KJV completely outdated and obsolete.

Sorry Clete, but that's going a bit too far.

 

[marke]

Because babies die, and death is the result of sin. If it's not the baby's sin, then it must be someone else's.

Death was not introduced into life by evolution. God did not create death as part of life. Adam introduced death into the world because of sin. Now every living thing dies because of sin that was introduced into the world by Adam.

 

[Derf]

Death was not introduced into life by evolution. God did not create death as part of life. Adam introduced death into the world because of sin. Now every living thing dies because of sin that was introduced into the world by Adam.

I can see you don't like where we ended up, that a baby dies because of someone else's sin, but let's probe deeper. All those animals you've mentioned also die as a result of Adam's sin. And while an animal can sin to a point deserving of death, mostly we don't think they sin, right? But they, most being innocent, still die because of Adam's sin.

 

[Clete]

I didn't say they did. I said we all die due to our ancestor Adam's sin. Is there a reason you can't acknowledge that, just like @Clete can't seem to?

What I refuse to acknowledge is the implication that there is some moral responsibility for Adam's sin that we've inherited from him. That is NOT true!
By your logic, every baby that's been chopped alive into pieces by the abortionists DESERVED what they got!
Worse than that, you believe that GOD believes that they deserved what they got!

That's not just false, its blasphemy! God is NOT unjust! How is it even possible that those four words aren't enough to persuade you away from such a monstrously false doctrine? What exactly are you getting out of believe this that you cling to it so tightly that not even an entire chapter of the bible that is SPECIFICALLY about this precise topic can persuade you even an inch away from it?

 

[Clete]

Because babies die, and death is the result of sin. If it's not the baby's sin, then it must be someone else's.

Babies do not die because they are guilty of any sin - especially Adam's!