The Necessity of Justification

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SimpleMan77

New member
beloved57 said:
You have entitled this thread the necessity of Justification, then refuse to believe that Christ death alone Justified them He died for! What kind of foolishness is that ?
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What do you mean by "Christ's death alone justified them"?

Do say a little about what you believe instead of just continually posting what you think somebody else believes incorrectly.


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beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Sm77

Scientifically (simplified), "work" is simply using force to move an object any distance. The definition does not provide a minimum threshold for the object or the force. It can be a microscopic amount of force and movement, but it is still work.

Moving your mouth and talking is a work. Even consciously choosing to think is a work - things happen in your brain when you focus on making a decision, energy is used up, it causes neurons to fire in certain patterns. That = work.
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I agree with this poster on his points made here.

I have been preaching for years here that believing is a work. It's simple to understand when we study the greek word used for work. Its the word ergon and means:


érgon (from ergō, "to work, accomplish") – a work or worker who accomplishes something. 2041 /érgon ("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose).

any product whatever, anything accomplished by hand, art, industry, mind

. an act, deed, thing done:

If we be honest we can't but conclude that the act of believing is a work. If we make it a condition for our salvation, we're guilty of teaching salvation by works, in denial of grace!
 
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SimpleMan77

New member
beloved57 said:
Sm77



I agree with this poster on his points made here.

I have been preaching for years here that believing is a work. It's simple to understand when we study the greek word used for work. Its the word ergon and means:


érgon (from ergō, "to work, accomplish") – a work or worker who accomplishes something. 2041 /érgon ("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose).

any product whatever, anything accomplished by hand, art, industry, mind

. an act, deed, thing done:

If we be honest we can't but conclude that the act of believing is a work. If we make it a condition for our salvation, we're guilty of teaching salvation by works, in denial of grace!
Click to expand...

So you believe all will be saved, regardless of whether they believe or not?


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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
SimpleMan77 said:
Please qualify "faith and faith alone" and "works".

Scientifically (simplified), "work" is simply using force to move an object any distance. The definition does not provide a minimum threshold for the object or the force. It can be a microscopic amount of force and movement, but it is still work.

Moving your mouth and talking is a work. Even consciously choosing to think is a work - things happen in your brain when you focus on making a decision, energy is used up, it causes neurons to fire in certain patterns. That = work.

So the ONLY way you can say that it doesn't take works at all to be saved is to believe in unconditional predestination in its most extreme sense. You'd have to believe that someone could theoretically never hear about God, be the worst thief, rapist and murderer the world has ever seen, and die while doing those deeds, but go to heaven because his works were totally irrelevant.

If you say it takes "choosing to accept Christ": that is a work. If you must "confess Jesus": that is a work.

Where do you draw the line? Could it be that biblical obedience is not a work?


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Even if faith is a work, which I don't believe that it is. It does not save. There is nothing absolutely nothing that we can do, say, or become that will save us.

We are saved by the doing and the dying of Jesus, that is what saves us. Faith is nothing but a mental acceptance of a truth. We hear, we believe and we are saved, not because we believed, but because we believe that Jesus saved us.
 
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SimpleMan77

New member
Robert Pate said:
Even if faith is a work, which I don't believe that it is. It does not save. There is nothing absolutely nothing that we can do, say, or become that will save us.

We are saved by the doing and the dying of Jesus, that is what saves us. Faith is nothing but a mental acceptance of a truth. We hear, we believe and we are saved, not because we believed, but because we believe that Jesus saved us.
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Believing is a choice, and at times a struggle (which is why Paul said fight the good fight of faith). It is absolutely a work.

So if you were an unrepentant mass murderer on death row, and the president came to your prison with a signed pardon, and said "if you'll come sign this document you'll walk out a free man"...

On a spiritual level, how does that cheapen the grace of God? Can the criminal say anything other than "no credit to anything I did - it wasn't me deserving it, it was his mercy alone".

Obedience does not equal "saving works". Not ever. If God wants to say you must believe, you must confess, you must be baptized, whatever he wants to say, obedience is not us saving ourselves.


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Robert Pate

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Banned
beloved57 said:
You have entitled this thread the necessity of Justification, then refuse to believe that Christ death alone Justified them He died for! What kind of foolishness is that ?
Click to expand...

"The FREE Gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life" Romans 5:18.

Another one for you to reject.
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
SimpleMan77 said:
Believing is a choice, and at times a struggle (which is why Paul said fight the good fight of faith). It is absolutely a work.

So if you were an unrepentant mass murderer on death row, and the president came to your prison with a signed pardon, and said "if you'll come sign this document you'll walk out a free man"...

On a spiritual level, how does that cheapen the grace of God? Can the criminal say anything other than "no credit to anything I did - it wasn't me deserving it, it was his mercy alone".

Obedience does not equal "saving works". Not ever. If God wants to say you must believe, you must confess, you must be baptized, whatever he wants to say, obedience is not us saving ourselves.


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Right, The Gospel calls for a response. How can one hear that Christ died on a wood cross for their sins and not respond. Many are going to find out that no response, was a response.
 
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SimpleMan77

New member
Robert Pate said:
Right, The Gospel calls for a response. How can one hear that Christ died on a wood cross for their sins and not respond. Many are going to find out that no response, was a response.
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Jesus said "you will not come to me so that you can have life". The "coming" is a work because it necessitates an act, and according to some people we can't have any work that is prerequisite for getting life. According to Jesus it can.


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beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
Right, The Gospel calls for a response. How can one hear that Christ died on a wood cross for their sins and not respond. Many are going to find out that no response, was a response.
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That's Salvation by works, by what a person does. Them Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10 ! They're saved without believing or responding !
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
Even if faith is a work, which I don't believe that it is. It does not save. There is nothing absolutely nothing that we can do, say, or become that will save us.

We are saved by the doing and the dying of Jesus, that is what saves us. Faith is nothing but a mental acceptance of a truth. We hear, we believe and we are saved, not because we believed, but because we believe that Jesus saved us.
Click to expand...

You teach that sinners Christ lived and died for are going to perish in their sins anyways!
 
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SimpleMan77

New member
beloved57 said:
That's Salvation by works, by what a person does. Them Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10 ! They're saved without believing or responding !
Click to expand...

So... it's not God's desire that any should perish, and we know that Christ died, not for our sins only, but for the whole world, so the only thing your doctrine can say is that all will be saved.

If that is so, Paul had the word for you. Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die. Party hard, live your life only about your own selfish desires, step on as many as you have to in order to better yourself... it doesn't matter because Jesus's blood justifies us all.

If I kill someone to better my life, it is their shortcut to heaven, and my life is better. Win win all around.

How does that belief not lead someone to this extreme?


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beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
SimpleMan77 said:
So... it's not God's desire that any should perish, and we know that Christ died, not for our sins only, but for the whole world, so the only thing your doctrine can say is that all will be saved.

If that is so, Paul had the word for you. Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die. Party hard, live your life only about your own selfish desires, step on as many as you have to in order to better yourself... it doesn't matter because Jesus's blood justifies us all.

If I kill someone to better my life, it is their shortcut to heaven, and my life is better. Win win all around.

How does that belief not lead someone to this extreme?


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Invalid comments not found in scripture.
 
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SimpleMan77

New member
beloved57 said:
Invalid comments not found in scripture.
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Is God going to save everyone, regardless of their choices. His blood is the atonement for the sins of everyone according to scripture.

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

He also desires that none should perish.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Does that mean everyone will be saved, regardless of any choice they make or work they do?


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beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
SimpleMan77 said:
Is God going to save everyone, regardless of their choices. His blood is the atonement for the sins of everyone according to scripture.

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

He also desires that none should perish.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Does that mean everyone will be saved, regardless of any choice they make or work they do?


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Click to expand...

Them Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10 ! They're saved without believing or responding !
 
S

SimpleMan77

New member
Robert Pate said:
Even if faith is a work, which I don't believe that it is. It does not save. There is nothing absolutely nothing that we can do, say, or become that will save us.

We are saved by the doing and the dying of Jesus, that is what saves us. Faith is nothing but a mental acceptance of a truth. We hear, we believe and we are saved, not because we believed, but because we believe that Jesus saved us.
Click to expand...

When people are presented with the Gospel, what is the salvific response? Is a casual, fleeting, dismissive thought of "sure, ok, He died for me... so what" enough? No other response, only that.

Technically that is believing in the work of Calvary. If faith is a "mental acceptance of a truth", then that bar has been crossed with this response.

Was James talking to the church of today when he said "faith without works is dead"? He certainly wasn't referring to the works of the Mosaic law. The two examples he used were helping the poor, and Abrahams pre-Mosaic response to God's instructions.


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