The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

Epoisses

New member
These verses do not say that all were saved (past tense) at the cross. The objective provision of the finished work of the cross is intended for and sufficient for all, but it is only efficacious, appropriated subjectively by some.

Your wording is universalistic, so you need to qualify/clarify.

Beloved's TULIP/limited atonement is wrong, to be sure.

These verses do say that especially Romans 5.

I do agree with your understanding of an objective aspect which happened at the cross and extended to all men and the subjective aspect which is what happens in the life of each believer.

I see the objective gospel as universal and the subjective gospel as only applying to believers or the elect. The lost will be damned because they refused their free gift of salvation. Like Esau they despise their birthright and throw it away.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Salvation is for One Specific People !

All throughout scripture, its plainly indicated that Salvation from the Lord is designed for only one Specific People, and that is God's Elect from every nation ! God has only Promised Salvation to Israel Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.


God never promised Israel National, Abraham's Physical seed that He would save them all, to them only a Remnant was promised to be saved Rom 9:27

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

So Israel here is not ethnic jews, but the seed of Abraham that belongs to Christ His Church Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Heirs according to what Promise ? The One in Isa 45:17, that Israel shall be saved with an Everlasting Salvation in the Lord [ Jesus Christ] for Everlasting Salvation is no other Acts 4:12

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Paul preached to both jew and gentile that God hath according to Promise raised up a Saviour to Israel [His Elect] Acts 13:23

23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Now if He raised up Jesus as a Saviour to Israel, then He died for Israel according to Promise !

The Mystery has always been that Israel, which was Promised to be saved Isa 45:17 was comprised of people of all nations, and not just ethnic jews ! Therefore the emphasis with words like world, whole world, all and etc .

Other scriptures that limit Salvation to only a certain people Ps 130:7

7 Let Israel hope in the Lord: for with the Lord there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.

Ps 131:3

3 Let Israel hope in the Lord from henceforth and for ever.


So because God only promised a remnant would be saved out of Abraham's physical seed Israel Rom 9:27, then the rest of Israel that was promised to be saved were gentiles, and so thats why Paul concludes in Rom 11:26 that in that manner, all Israel shall be saved ! Rom 11:25-26

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

When the fulness of the gentiles be come in Under the New Covenant, then all the Israel of God shall be saved.

So Salvation has never been promised to any but Israel !
 
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Ps82

Well-known member
Beloved57,
I think I get your over-all point. The true meaning of "Israel" includes more than the Jews. It includes all the Gentiles that have "come in" through Christ. Correct?

You made some good points.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Redemption limited to God's Elect !

Rev 14:1-5

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

This passage shows in allegorical fashion just who the Lord Jesus Christ redeems by His Blood. These we will now compare with 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

First of all its the same Lamb in both passages, that is the Lamb of Rev 14:1 is the Lamb in 1 Pet 1:19

The same redemption in Rev 14:3-4

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Is the same Redemption here 1 Pet 1:18

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

Both are God's Ransomed Elect from the Earth, ransomed by the Blood of Christ, the Lamb !

They are also the same redeemed ones here Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he[The Lamb] might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

All these Pertain to God's Elect and Redemption. The ones in Rev 14 are God's Elect, the ones in 1 Peter are God's Elect 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ [The Lamb slain]: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Titus 2:14 is unto the Elect Per Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

The 144000 is another way of saying God's elect, the completed number of them from the Earth, redeemed from the Earth.

They are the ones without blame before God Rev 14:5

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

The very same one here Jude 1:24

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy
 
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godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
All those verses apply only to God's Elect !

God's election is CORPORATE, not individual (initially), in Christ (not apart from Him), conditional (upon repentant faith for the individual), not unconditional.

TULIP is not the gospel, but a paradigm called Calvinism that is unbiblical. You read it into the texts (eisegesis) as proof texts vs exegesis.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Zech 13:1

That Salvation Blessings Christ would wrought by His Blood was limited to a Specific People [The House of David] and not the entire world and everyone without exception, is seen here in Zech 13:1

In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

Thats why the Book of Romans opens up with Rom 1:3

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

2 Tim 2:8

8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Salvation Mercies are the Sure Mercies of David ! Isa 55:3; Acts 13:34

This is because the Salvation Gospel Preached to both Jews and Gentiles belonged to the House of David Zech 13:1, but not Davids physical house, but a spiritual house ordered by the Everlasting Covenant 2 Sam 23:5.

Gentile Salvation was a by product of Salvation for the House of David Rom 15:8-13

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse [House of David], and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust [Salvation Eph 1:13].

13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
 
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beloved57

Well-known member
Particular Redemption /Salvation!

That Christ's Salvation work is limited to a particular people, and not intended for all mankind without exception, we see that from yet another passage Lk 1:68-70,73

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

Yes its promised to the Family of Abraham ! His People, The House of David.

And this has been the focus since the World began Lk 1:70

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

When God spake to the Serpent, Adam and Eve here Gen 3:15, that one who was to bruise the head of the serpent, by so doing, would be the Salvation of the Hose of David or Abraham, an Elect People, The Israel of God !

Look again at Vs 69, Who is it specifically declared to be for ? A Horn of Salvation to whose House ? Now is the House of David the Whole World without exception ? It could also be understood as unto the descendants of David, or the descendants of Abraham Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Lk 1:72-73

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

Yes, Christ is a Promised Mercy to those who have Abraham as their Father !
 
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blackbirdking

New member
There was a point in time when Rahab was not a part of Abraham's seed; that changed.

Joshua 2 :9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you. 10For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.

Joshua 6:25

Following the allegory of Abraham shows that Abraham must have been sneaking around with Rahab's mama.
 

blackbirdking

New member
1 John 2:1-2My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world

"Our" meaning the elect....me, us, the chosen few.

"the whole world" meaning....... hmmmm; well it doesn't fit my idea and I'm right, the writer couldn't have been meaning anybody else so............hmmmmmmmmmm, well, by cracky, it must mean the elect too!!!

I'm really elect!
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Limited to the Saints !

Limited to the Saints !

1 Jn 4:9

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

A Purpose of God for which Christ came into the World, His Incarnation, was not to save all humanity, but was a manifestation of God's Love, the Eternal Love He had for His Elect World [ Israel] and through His Death, they might Live through Him. Now take notice of whom the sacred writer refers to here, him using the pronoun us & we, which makes this Purpose restricted to the Saints of God.

The Saints of God are all those God chose in Christ for this Purpose Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

These are the ones by His sacrifice He sanctified or set apart permanently Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

God's will and Purpose gave a sanctification of His People [made them Holy] Permanently by the once and for all Offering of Christ !
 

beloved57

Well-known member
He bore the sin of many, not all without exception !

He bore the sin of many, not all without exception !

Isa 53:12

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Despite clear scripture Testimony of the exclusiveness of those Christ died for, the many as opposed to all humanity without exception, men will wrest this truth to their own destruction.

In addition to our opening text as to whom Christ bare the sin of, the many, lets look at Heb 9:28

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Now does that say " offered to bear the sins of all men without exception ?" No it does not, and its dishonesty and the handling the word deceitfully to claim that it does mean that.

Yes, there is a sense in which He bare the sins of all, as in all of the many. That word many is the greek word polys:

many, much, large

And what that denotes is that He bare the sin of a large number of individuals. That very large # is shown forth here Rev 7:9

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

But this Great Multitude was exclusive and out of the whole, out of all nations. The word of as in out of is the greek prep ek which means:

out of, from, by, away from

Thats all of the many, a great multitude, which no man can number, but God can number them as sure as He can number the very hairs of their head Matt 10:30

But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

And that word numbered, the greek word arithmeō derived from
arithmos which means:

a fixed and definite number [with God]

And this fixed and definite # makes up an multitude that no man can number, and it is appropriate at times to refer to them as all ! Not all without exception, but all as to denote their large number, all the large multitude !

2 Sam 6:19

And he dealt among all the people, even among the whole multitude of Israel, as well to the women as men, to every one a cake of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine. So all the people departed every one to his house.

1 Kings 20:13

And, behold, there came a prophet unto Ahab king of Israel, saying, Thus saith the Lord, Hast thou seen all this great multitude? behold, I will deliver it into thine hand this day; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord.

Acts 15:12

Then all[pas] the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

So when in the context of saying who Christ gave Himself a ransom for or in behalf of, it can be said for all as here 1 Tim 2:6

Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Or for the many Matt 20:28

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Many denotes the exclusiveness of those He gave His Life a Ransom in behalf of, and all embraces the large number of the exclusiveness of the many, all the many, even multitudinous.

Matt 26:28

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Again, the many, denoting exclusiveness of those His Blood was shed for !




Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Here is where my point is Illustrated. The first all, does mean all without exception and pas is used to define them, but the "as many as" which separates them from the all in general as in all flesh, the as many as is also defined by the word pas, as it defines only all that had been given to Christ !

In other words its of all which thou has given Him !

But its quite evident that pas cannot mean the same in both places . So to say all always means all without exception, is handling the word of God deceitfully, especially in light of the fact that other scripture can give more clarification of the subject matter in order to understand the subject in agreement with the subject throughout scripture.

Christ's death, whose sins He died for is clearly define as the many, as exclusive from all in general ! To deny this is wresting scripture and handling it deceitfully !
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
All those verses apply only to God's Elect !

No, world refers to the unregenerate, for e.g. You and Calvin wrongly interpolate elect to retain a wrong view.

God's grace and love is intended for and sufficient for all, but only efficacious for those who cease to resist His love and grace.

A denial of free will and a wrong view of sovereignty are two negative issues you need to fix.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
gr

No, world refers to the unregenerate

Not all the time. But even the Elect world, its members are at one time unregenerate, but they all will be saved out of that condition by Christ.

Then there is the unregenerate world that will remain so. The One Jesus did not pray for Jn 17:9

But as far as the ones I quoted in post 451, they all apply to the Elect !
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Came to seek and to Save Abraham's Seed !

Came to seek and to Save Abraham's Seed !

Lk 19:9-10

9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Christ came to seek and to save not all without exception, but all who are of the Chosen Seed of Abraham ! Ps 105:6

O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

This passage in Lk 19 surely indicates this. The man Zacchaeus, because he was blessed to be of that Chosen Seed, Salvation came to his house, as a result of the Seeking Son of man, Note: Those Christ came to save, He seeks them until He finds them, and confers His Salvation Upon them !

That Christ came to seek and to save only a Chosen People called Israel, He clearly states that here Matt 15:24

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

What can be more plainer stated, that He was sent ONLY to the Lost Sheep of Israel !

24 Jesus replied, “I’ve been sent only to the lost sheep, the people of Israel.”[CEB]


24 He said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Isra’el.”[CJB]


24 Jesus answered, “God sent me only to the lost people of Israel.”[ERV]

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”[ESV]

Now what does the word only mean ?

He was sent only once by the Father into the World, so He must be Talking about that sending here 1 Jn 4:9

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we [ The Lost Sheep of Israel] might live through him.

With that in Mind, all other portions stating about Christ being sent for Saving Purposes Jn 3:17

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The World here must be the World of the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, or we have a contradiction with Matt 15:24 ! You see, we must understand the more specific over the general. Yes Jn 3:17 speaks of a World to Save which does not preclude that World being the House of Israel !
 

Bright Raven

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
So you say that only Jews can be saved through Christ? Wrong! How were you saved? Jesus died for all but not all accept his redemptive act.

It's pretty simple.

John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
 
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