ECT The Most Misunderstood Passage in the Bible--Romans 5:12-18

[God's Truth]

It just proves that you are not the only delusional one on this forum!

You want to know how one can know who is born again. You are no evidence of having the Spirit.

You are a bitter mean person.

I am saved and not delusional.

Jesus Christ himself saved me.

If you had the Spirit of God you would know better.

 

[Shasta]

I have said that Adam's sin was responsible for man's physical death. But all men die spiritually as a result of their own sin and not as a result of Adam's sin.

Romans 5 will be searched in vain for any teaching which indicate that anyone died spiritually as a result of Adam's sin. In fact, there we read that "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

God told Adam "in the day you eat of it (the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil) you will surely die. Now that did not happen physically until 900+ years later so either God was not telling the truth or he did die. This is the basis for the long held belief that he died spiritually. Being disfellowshipped from God, estrange from His indwelling presence is the definition of spiritual death. This agrees with the NT idea that men are not alive spiritually until they are born again. There would be no need for a second birth if the first birth were sufficient to bring life and connection to God.

If you think that children are not fallen, that they have spiritual life and are in union with God then it is plain you have not worked with them for any length of time. Most of my various careers was spent working with children an I assure you they do not naturally evidence the fruit of the Spirit. They have to be "trained" before they behave. A child who was unfallen (like Jesus) would know instinctively what to do because their soul would be influenced by the Holy Spirit. I have known children, even small children, that exhibited behavior and attitudes that can only be described as devilish.

Children, like their adult counterparts, are selfish. They are because, lacking God-consciousness they are naturally self-conscious and self centered. Because of this they must be brought into obedience through the application of love and law. Children must be trained up in the way they should go.

Physical death came because of our loss of access to the Tree of Life but what explains the universality of sin? The answer is that lacking union with the Spirit, the first parents could pass only the life of the body (which is physical) and soul (which is psychological). The fact that spiritual life is not transmitted via natural generation explains why all men universally need spiritual life. There are no people who having been perfect little boys and girls have grown up to be perfect adults just because the environment and genetics were just right.

 

[Tambora]

QUESTION for the general public:

Did the law have a specific remedy/sacrifice for Adam's sin, apart from the individual sins of the people?
We know there were sacrifices for the sins the people themselves committed, but was there any to atone for Adam's sin?

 

[Nick M]

Peter was the first to go to Gentiles. Paul went first to Jews.

What do you mean first? You just said it Galatians 2 was to whom they were ministering. When in fact, Peter went to the Jews and Gentiles, and Paul went to the Jews and gentiles. Besides Galatians 2 states a gospel for the Jews (circumcision) and one for the gentiles. The circumcision is always what you preach, to obey the letter of the law, including the ceremony. Paul said otherwise. I knew you could not help your self.

 

[Tambora]

God told Adam "in the day you eat of it (the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil) you will surely die. Now that did not happen physically until 900+ years later so either God was not telling the truth or he did die.

Hi Shasta!

Is it IMPOSSIBLE for it to mean that if Adam eats the poisoned fruit, it will bring him death?
Does it HAVE to mean that death HAD to actually occur on the same day he ate?
Or can it mean it in the same way we tell someone that if they drink poison today, they will die (doesn't have to be on that same day that you die, but just that it will certainly bring death to you)?

This is the basis for the long held belief that he died spiritually. Being disfellowshipped from God, estrange from His indwelling presence is the definition of spiritual death.

But Adam was not estranged from GOD's presence.
GOD came looking for Adam in the garden, spoke with him in the garden, and covered him; all after Adam ate the fruit.
So where is the 'estrangement' from GOD?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There would be no need for a second birth if the first birth were sufficient to bring life and connection to God.

Since men die spiritually as a result of their own sin (Ro.5:12) then it is obvious that before they sin they are spiritually alive. And this truth is made plain by what Paul says in the following verse about his salvation:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).​

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewing of the Holy Spirit." If a person is "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit.

Joseph Henry Thayer says that the Greek word translated regenerartion "denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renvation" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When a person is born again of the Spirit that means that he is restored back his pristine state of previously being born of the spirit. That means that all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I think there is a misunderstanding on the biblically restricted through teachings of men's side.

There are three major issues that they are appearing concerned about.

1: They believe that our discussion is suggesting that we can be righteous like Jesus. I am certain that we of this open discussion are suggesting no such thing. We all sin and have sinned, yet only by Jesus are we saved.

2: They believe that the nature of Christ being discussed is in contradiction to these two scriptures... Heb. 4:15 ... and Rm. 8:3 ... people in other words... need to be assured that we know Christ had no sin... and we know that no man is without guilt of mosaic Law imputed sin, but Jesus... and He is the Only of humanity that is perfect... because He is God and always has been... yet some are misunderstanding...

3: Some are calling this "sinless" doctrine... when we perpetually are stating that only God is without imperfection... thus all humanity fails and Spiritually dies as Adam did... cementing our collective need for Jesus. We are simply stating that we are not born Spiritually dead... it is that all transgress but One. God!

Would this be accurate to iterate, from your perspective Jerry... thus far?

Hello [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] ,

Could you please look this over for me? It is simply to prevent attack on the direction we are headed. Do you affirm what I have written?

 

[Tambora]

Ps... does anyone know the highlight code?

Use brackets [ ] instead of ( ).

(yellow) type word to highlight (/yellow)

and it will show up like this
type word to highlight


There are four highlight colors.
yellow
green
blue
pink

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Since men die spiritually as a result of their own sin (Ro.5:12) then it is obvious that before they sin they are spiritually alive. And this truth is made plain by what Paul says in the following verse about his salvation:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).​

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewing of the Holy Spirit." If a person is "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit.

Joseph Henry Thayer says that the Greek word translated regenerartion "denotes the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renvation" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When a person is born again of the spirit that means that he is restored back his pristine state of previously being born of the spirit. That means that all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

So then..... where did the generation of vipers come from?

Let's see.

According to you when one spiritually dies they have been generated by evil.

Either that or Jesus used the wrong word describing vipers.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

So then..... where did the generation of vipers come from?

Let's see.

According to you when one spiritually dies they have been generated by evil.

Either that or Jesus used the wrong word describing vipers.

The key is in your "twice dead" verse that you quoted. To be once dead "spiritually"... one would have to have "died" spiritually. To become "twice dead" (Jd. 1:12) spiritually... one would have to live... die ... become regenerated and then die again. We see this in the Pharisees... they had knowledge of God, but chose pride over Him. This made them distorted and twice dead...

This is enunciated in this parable...

Matthew 12:43 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. (What else could this be then a "regenerated soul"?) 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”​

This correlates with this verse... (2 Pt. 2:21)

Judas is an example of this... not by grace conditions... as the DBR wasn't dispensed yet... but that he was in the presence of God and rejected Him to His face. Literally... with a kiss.

 

[intojoy]

The key is in your "twice dead" verse that you quoted. To be once dead "spiritually"... one would have to have "died" spiritually. To become "twice dead" spiritually... one would have to live... die ... become regenerated and then die again. We see this in the Pharisees... they had knowledge of God, but chose pride over Him. This made them distorted and twice dead...

This is enunciated in this parable...

Matthew 12:43 (yellow)“When an unclean spirit goes out of a man[/yellow], he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ (pink)And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order(/pink). (What else could this be then a "regenerated soul"?) 45 (yellow)Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first(/yellow). So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”​

Adam's children were born spiritually dead.
When Adam was created he was in a state of unconfirmed creaturely holiness. He was a spirit with a body. The day that Adam ate from the tree in the midst of the garden of Eden he died spiritually instantaneously. Adam's physical death began that day in that he could age, he could become ill,l.


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[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

You want to know how one can know who is born again. You are no evidence of having the Spirit.

You are a bitter mean person.

I am saved and not delusional.

Jesus Christ himself saved me.

If you had the Spirit of God you would know better.

No one is doubting that Jesus saved you... and Jerry isn't bitter... he wants to ensure that "it is finished" retains it's God intended meaning.

To complicate salvation is to lock up the kingdom to others... even if you think it is simple... It is a matter of (Eph. 2:8f ... no added cost... God gives a gift freely as He is God and does things perfectly!)

 

[steko]

Use brackets [ ] instead of ( ).

(yellow) type word to highlight (/yellow)

and it will show up like this
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There are four highlight colors.
yellow
green
blue
pink

(yellow) type word to highlight (/yellow)

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Adam's children were born spiritually dead.
When Adam was created he was in a state of unconfirmed creaturely holiness. He was a spirit with a body. The day that Adam ate from the tree in the midst of the garden of Eden he died spiritually instantaneously. Adam's physical death began that day in that he could age, he could become ill,l.


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Intojoy ... I don't know who you are... but I know you believe in grace. So I will continue to casually minimize my responses towards you. Until you demonstrate a more comprehensive use of scripture and your purpose in opening dialogue... i'm going to remain polite and reserved towards you.

This is my opinion on the matter.

 

[steko]

type word to highlight

 

[steko]

type word to highlight

Fancy that!

Thanks, Sis!

 

[glorydaz]

Genesis links subsequent generations and proclivity with the creation and experience of Adam and Eve. It establishes them as prototypical to our experience. There are no offspring until after the Fall and Eve is called the "mother of all living".

Our understanding of how DNA works, and the cumulative effects of errors in our basic code, should enhance our understanding of how every generation is foundationally linked to our first parents. If the Fall had not occurred, we would still be in the "it was very good" condition pronounced by God.

We see the connection to future generations in that Gen 2:23KJV is directly linked with Gen 2:24KJV for example.

It is to be understood that the history of the first two created is the basis for the Gospel from Gen 3:15KJV. Post Fall, a declaration that war will now exist between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent is pronounced. I believe this is one of the generational connections you are suggesting are missing. It is specifically tied to "seed"; however we understand that. I see the two seeds as Jesus describes the wheat and the tares or the sheep and the goats. This is why when we come to Christ we need to be "born again", completely changed, and not just mildly convinced.

Following that is Gen 3:16KJV which is the "Boy's Club" eisegetical dream verse. How much damage has been done by not recognizing that this depicts how bad its going to be between unregenerate spouses because the perfect mold is now damaged? Far too many think this verse tells us how God wants marriage to be organized.
Because of sin, women will not have direct access to God (until born again) but will desperately, and unsuccessfully, try to find meaning by desiring defective, fallen men to supply that which they don't have. And men (until born again) will mistakenly think that ruling over women is a territorial right and will subjugate and demean the woman and the institution of marriage. Jesus tells us to go back to "the beginning", before the Fall, if we want to understand a right relationship between man and woman. Matt 19:8KJV

The sweat of Adam's brow not only indicates his difficulty, but points to how all nature has been turned against him. Thorns and thistles now resist him and his descendants.

I see Genesis as connecting these dots quite well and preparing us to understand Paul's words. Satan did not just have his eyes on the two in the garden. He did not destroy the progenitorial aspect of the mold because he wanted billions of future bond-servants; his own descendants. His concentration was on damaging the ability of the first two humans to recognize they were made in God's image and they should listen to Him, knowing that their progeny would be like them.

That was a very interesting read, George. What it tells me is that sin, itself, was not passed down, but the effects of Adam's sin were. Thank you for taking the time to make some very interesting and convincing points.

 

[glorydaz]

Small s newborn human spirit.


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Not in my Bible it isn't.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So then..... where did the generation of vipers come from?

Let's see.

According to you when one spiritually dies they have been generated by evil.

Either that or Jesus used the wrong word describing vipers.

No, according to me a person dies spiritually when he sins.

 

[Tambora]

Fancy that!

Thanks, Sis!

You are welcome, brother.