ECT The most important thread I have ever started?

[turbosixx]

I left a church for just that.

"Well, Paul didn't really mean..."

Smart move.

It's simple, Paul meant what he said as did all the other inspired writers.

 

[theophilus]

Smart move.

It's simple, Paul meant what he said as did all the other inspired writers.

You and I know that...

...but seeing what one WANTS to see in scripture seems to be the status quo in Dixieland.

 

[turbosixx]

But, please understand that there are many dozens of warning verses,

Some of those warning verses even include "Do not be deceived" but they fall on ears that would rather be tickled.

 

[Interplanner]

"It means what it says" is not as useful as you might think. Let's take a line from Ps 23 for ex. You grew up with it: "He leads me beside still waters." It sounds like sheep don't like moving water and that still water is good. In usual English we would normally then say, '...to still waters.'

But the meaning is the opposite. In a desert setting, still water is brackish at best and may be toxic. 'Beside' meant past. So now we have a shepherd who protects his assets by moving them along past poison.

It means what it says once you have studied it well.

Most of the NT was written to detangle the Gospel from Judaism. 2nd, the NT uses the OT 2500 times in quotes and allusions. Yet people still go directly to the OT and say 'it means what it says.' The 2500 are what Jesus taught in the 40 day 'seminar' between the Res and Pentecost.

 

[turbosixx]

"It means what it says" is not as useful as you might think. Let's take a line from Ps 23 for ex. You grew up with it: "He leads me beside still waters." It sounds like sheep don't like moving water and that still water is good. In usual English we would normally then say, '...to still waters.'

But the meaning is the opposite. In a desert setting, still water is brackish at best and may be toxic. 'Beside' meant past. So now we have a shepherd who protects his assets by moving them along past poison.

It means what it says once you have studied it well.

Most of the NT was written to detangle the Gospel from Judaism. 2nd, the NT uses the OT 2500 times in quotes and allusions. Yet people still go directly to the OT and say 'it means what it says.' The 2500 are what Jesus taught in the 40 day 'seminar' between the Res and Pentecost.

In my understanding, if we look at the context we can determine what is meant by what it says, like your example "quiet waters".

 

[heir]

Many years ago, I was warned about this passage by my pastor …
Matthew 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name,
cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them,
‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Benjamin Baruch (one of God’s last-days prophets/watchmen) says:
“Our nation is full of professing Christians, who assume they will go to heaven,
yet the Lord declares (see above) that many on that day will be cast out!
These poor souls were converted, and some had even done miracles in His name,
yet they never knew Him. Dear reader, ask the Lord to test your heart.
Do you know Him? Does His word abide in you? Are you abiding in Him?
Do not trust in the mere confession of faith, but see if you have the love of
the Father in your heart and the evidence of salvation, which is the desire
to please and obey Him as Lord … I asked the Lord what was different
about the many that did not know Him, but only knew His name.
He answered me saying,
“These are they who have never received of my character, and were never
changed by my words, and have never learned to walk in my ways.
To them I will say, ‘Lo Ammi. You are not my people.’ “

Quite a good example of this is seen here …

John 15:
1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away,
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him,
bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love,
just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

I see verse 21 below as a parallel passage to verse 10 above.
We are required to follow Jesus’ example of obeying God’s commandments,
which is perhaps the biggest part of overcoming, i.e. of being an overcomer.

Revelation 21:
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door,
I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

I realize you (of the Laodicean church, Rev 3) hate all of these troubling NT
passages that warn about loss of salvation. And I realize that you prefer
Scriptures such as John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8, and etc.
But, please understand that there are many dozens of warning verses,
and the Lord insists that your co-operation with the Holy Spirit and
your obedience to His commands are required for salvation!

ZacharyB has no word of truth to rightly divide...

 

[heir]

I agree. If one sees contradictions or has to say “it’s not saying what it appears to say” then there’s a problem.

Acts 10:35 KJV

vs. Titus 3:5 KJV

Both mean exactly what they say and yet say the opposite. Now what?

 

[heir]

Are you an overcomer Zach ?

No, he's not. Romans 3:23 KJV

 

[patrick jane]

Acts 10:35 KJV

vs. Titus 3:5 KJV

Both mean exactly what they say and yet say the opposite. Now what?

Exactly, that's what MAD does, rightly divide. When two scriptures contradict we study why. That's why we know there are different pieces of good news, different audiences.

 

[beloved57]

Many years ago, I was warned about this passage by my pastor …
Matthew 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name,
cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them,
‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Benjamin Baruch (one of God’s last-days prophets/watchmen) says:
“Our nation is full of professing Christians, who assume they will go to heaven,
yet the Lord declares (see above) that many on that day will be cast out!
These poor souls were converted, and some had even done miracles in His name,
yet they never knew Him. Dear reader, ask the Lord to test your heart.
Do you know Him? Does His word abide in you? Are you abiding in Him?
Do not trust in the mere confession of faith, but see if you have the love of
the Father in your heart and the evidence of salvation, which is the desire
to please and obey Him as Lord … I asked the Lord what was different
about the many that did not know Him, but only knew His name.
He answered me saying,
“These are they who have never received of my character, and were never
changed by my words, and have never learned to walk in my ways.
To them I will say, ‘Lo Ammi. You are not my people.’ “

Quite a good example of this is seen here …

John 15:
1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away,
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him,
bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love,
just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

I see verse 21 below as a parallel passage to verse 10 above.
We are required to follow Jesus’ example of obeying God’s commandments,
which is perhaps the biggest part of overcoming, i.e. of being an overcomer.

Revelation 21:
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door,
I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

I realize you (of the Laodicean church, Rev 3) hate all of these troubling NT
passages that warn about loss of salvation. And I realize that you prefer
Scriptures such as John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8, and etc.
But, please understand that there are many dozens of warning verses,
and the Lord insists that your co-operation with the Holy Spirit and
your obedience to His commands are required for salvation!

Those Christ died for are reconciled to God and ensured full salvation while they are being enemies and rebellious unbelievers Rom 5:10 !

 

[ZacharyB]

http://www.benjaminbaruch.net/about-the-author.htmlBaruch claims his books were written under inspiration of the Holy Spirit ...

The very least I can say about Baruch is that he has received (from Jesus Himself) the baptism with the Holy Spirit. I know this because of the many things he has written about it and related items.

Hast thou received this special anointing?
Art thou even born-again with the indwelling Holy Spirit?
Don't see how and be so lacking in spiritual understanding.
'Cause the Holy Spirit is within true believers to teach them
"all things" (several Scriptures).
IMO, He has taught you next to nothing.

 

[ZacharyB]

I agree. If one sees contradictions or has to say “it’s not saying what it appears to say” then there’s a problem.

99% of believers today belong to the Laodicean church, and have absolutely NO desire to reconcile the NT verses ... because doing so would mean obeying Jesus' commandments!
That's all there is to it.

 

[ZacharyB]

Please take note that the 2 most vehemently opposed to my understanding of the NT are women! ... Men, needest I sayeth more?
Paul said they should stay up in the peanut gallery and keep their mouths shut until they get home where they can query their husbands about spiritual matters.

 

[turbosixx]

Acts 10:35 KJV

vs. Titus 3:5 KJV

Both mean exactly what they say and yet say the opposite. Now what?

Good example.

I don’t see them as opposite. If you will notice, in both cases it’s pointed out that they were doing works in righteousness. Titus is merely saying our salvation is not based on our works but his mercy.

Nowhere does the bible tell us we are saved “without works”.

 

[heir]

Good example.

I don’t see them as opposite.

They are exact opposites!

If you will notice, in both cases it’s pointed out that they were doing works in righteousness. Titus is merely saying our salvation is not based on our works but his mercy.

Peter tells the Gentiles that their fearing God and working righteousness makes them accepted of Him. Paul writes the opposite in Titus 3:5 KJV.

Nowhere does the bible tell us we are saved “without works”.

:rotfl: Romans 11:6 KJV, Galatians 2:16 KJV, Romans 3:21-22 KJV, Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV, Titus 3:5-7 KJV

 

[turbosixx]

Exactly, that's what MAD does, rightly divide. When two scriptures contradict we study why. That's why we know there are different pieces of good news, different audiences.

Just so I understand you. You do see Christ as divided and some are followers of Peter and some are follwers of Paul? If I understand Paul correctly, there should be no division in Christ.

 

[turbosixx]

They are exact opposites! Peter tells the Gentiles that their fearing God and working righteousness makes them accepted of Him.

Accepted isn't saved. Paul said we must labor to be accepted.
2 Cor. 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Works are what makes us worthy but his mercy is the only reason we are saved. We can't earn it.

Romans 11:6 KJV, Galatians 2:16 KJV, Romans 3:21-22 KJV, Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV, Titus 3:5-7 KJV

None of those say "without works" and most talk of our works because they must be there.

 

[heir]

Accepted isn't saved. Paul said we must labor to be accepted.
2 Cor. 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

No, fool. He hath made us accepted in the beloved (Ephesians 1:3-7 KJV). What you brought up has to do with labouring in ministry as in reward for the work of the ministry.

2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

as in

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
...

2 Timothy 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

2 Timothy 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Works are what makes us worthy but his mercy is the only reason we are saved. We can't earn it.

You are a walking contradiction. Ephesians 2:4-5 KJV

None of those say "without works" and most talk of our works because they must be there.

Look again.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

...

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

 

[ZacharyB]

Those who were actually elected of God before the foundation of the world
are the only ones who were destined for salvation.
And these are the only ones to whom the many dozens of NT warning passages
were written to.
But, they serve another purpose: helping to promote a more moral society.

God saw that these special ones would respond to His commands and warnings
... with obedience unto righteousness, holiness, and eternal life (Romans 6).
"The wages of sin is death" applies to everyone.
Obedience is not any kind of "works"; it is simply what is expected of believers!

Sincere repentance will cover your on-going sins with Jesus' precious blood.
This has been promised ... because it is of the utmost necessity for us.

 

[Totton Linnet]

....you admit you have ongoing sins, the blood of Christ avails for you....but everyone else you think are drawing back to perdition.


...your sins are prolly nicer than mine