The fact that God knows the end from the beginning and lovingly oversees His whole creation to cause everything that seems bad into working for good to those who trust Him should be a comfort. The fact of election assures Christians that God will not allow the devil to move Christians to turn away from the truth and back into darkness after God has saved them.
The LORD is not willing that any should perish
- Thread starter beameup
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Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Agreed.
I think this reflects the idea in Matthew 16:18 perfectly: "I will build my church (the elect); and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
I guarantee you that answering my question is not a waste of your time.
Actually, it's a rather pointed question.
You should try answering it regardless.
If I'm a fool (I don't think I am, but perhaps I really am one), then you should follow the advice in Proverbs:
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him.Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes. - Proverbs 26:4-5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs26:4-5&version=NKJV
Show me how my question is "unlearned."
Define "sovereign."
Can God experience setbacks?
Then none should perish, according to your "sovereign and successful" claim by which you attempt to describe God's will!
Yet SOME DO IN FACT PERISH!
Yet despite your "sovereign and successful" claim, SOME DO NOT IN FACT COME TO REPENTANCE!
Many of God's "elect" are in hell right now.
So that's another proof that your theology is bad.
But according to you:
Are you now accusing God of speaking out of both sides of His mouth? Of contradicting Himself?
God is not the author of confusion, B57. So stop making out what He says to be confusing!
beloved57
Well-known member
jr
Im going to define it with scripture what i mean what Gods Sovereignty is. Dan 4:35
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Eph 1:11
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Ps 115:3
3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Ps 103:19
The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.
Job 23:13
13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
Im going to define it with scripture what i mean what Gods Sovereignty is. Dan 4:35
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Eph 1:11
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Ps 115:3
3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Ps 103:19
The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.
Job 23:13
13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
Thank you for doing so.
I thought you were going to use scripture, not "what [B57] means"...
If something to be done is not of God's will, then will He do it?
If God is working something according to the council of His will, does everything have to go exactly how He wants it to, or can some things change and He still accomplish His will?
For example, say God is working to bring a murderer to justice, but the murderer manages to slip past the police one more time than God intended, but eventually the murderer is caught and brought to trial and convicted, did God then, at that point, fail to accomplish His will, because the criminal evaded police one more time than He intended? Or was His will, in fact, accomplished, because His will was that the murderer was caught and punished, and didn't have anything to do with how the people He was working with went about the task?
Does it bring pleasure to God to send people to hell? Does God take pleasure in the death of the wicked?
Does a king actively control every single person in his kingdom, or does He allow his subjects to do as they please, so long as they follow his laws?
And so we come full circle back to the question at hand: Does God desire (is it His will (the word used in the verse this thread is about means "desire")) that any should perish?
beloved57
Well-known member
You welcome, so now you know what I mean by God being Sovereign. If Hes not willing for some not to perish and come to repentance, then He does according to His Will. Who can stop God ?
What you mean, and what the Bible says, are two very different things.
Answer the questions I asked in my post, B57.
Don't ignore them.
Answer the rest of my post please.
Don't use double negatives, B57. It's intentionally misleading.
To rephrase what you said without the double negatives:
| If Hes willing for some to perish and come to repentance, then He does according to His Will. Who can stop God? |
The problem is that Scripture is clear that HE DOES NOT, I REPEAT DOES NOT!!!! Want ANYONE to perish! That's literally what the verse says, B57!!!
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter3:9&version=NKJV
Either scripture is in error, or your beliefs are in error.
It cannot be scripture, therefore your beliefs must be wrong.
The following statement is true: "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Therefore, it cannot be by God's will that some do not repent, and that some do perish.
It's as simple as that.
Right Divider
Body part
You are a waste of everyone's time.
Again, you continue with your BOGUS definition of "sovereignty".
beloved57
Well-known member
If God wills not for a person to perish and come to repentance, then thats what will happen to that person, God is Sovereign !
beloved57
Well-known member
So you dont believe God is Sovereign. See scripture I provided earlier.
Right Divider
Body part
I believe that God is sovereign. I don't agree with your BOGUS definition of the word "sovereign".
I have a Bible and understand it, unlike you.
beloved57
Well-known member
If you believe God is Sovereign as Gods word defines it, then you know He gets what He wills !
Right Divider
Body part
The Bible says that God wills not that ANY should perish, but that all should come to repentance, but yet people still perish.
Or do you believe that no one perishes and that all do come to repentance?
No, He doesn't always!
HE EVEN SAYS SO HIMSELF!
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! - Matthew 23:37 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew23:37&version=NKJV
HERE'S ANOTHER SET OF PASSAGES THAT SAYS GOD IS WILLING TO DO SOMETHING BUT MAN IS NOT!!
But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.” - Romans 10:21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:21&version=NKJV
I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in a way that is not good, According to their own thoughts;A people who provoke Me to anger continually to My face; Who sacrifice in gardens, And burn incense on altars of brick;Who sit among the graves, And spend the night in the tombs; Who eat swine’s flesh, And the broth of abominable things is in their vessels;Who say, ‘Keep to yourself, Do not come near me, For I am holier than you!’ These are smoke in My nostrils, A fire that burns all the day. - Isaiah 65:2-5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah65:2-5&version=NKJV
beloved57
Well-known member
Yes He does, read the scriptures I showed you !
beloved57
Well-known member
You didnt read correctly, all the ones He is not willing to perish will not perish, all the ones He wills to come to repentance will come to repentance. God is Sovereign, I showed you the scriptures' :
Dan 4:35
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Eph 1:11
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Ps 115:3
3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Ps 103:19
The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.
Job 23:13
13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
NO HE DOESN'T!
Did you even BOTHER to read past the first line of my post!?
I literally quoted scripture of an instance where HE DID NOT!
I read just fine.
Says you.
Scripture contradicts you:
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter3:9&version=NKJV
Do you not know what the word "ANY" means?!
DO YOU NOT KNOW WHAT THE WORD "ALL" MEANS?!
I agree with the scriptures.
I disagree with your interpretation of them.
Answered here:
The LORD is not willing that any should perish
The word 'elect' is a dog whistle to Calvinism. But it's always just a synonym for Church. If instead of reading so much into the word elect when it appears in Scripture, Calvinism just reads it as a synonym for Church, then Calvinists would all just be Catholics and Calvinism would be...
theologyonline.com
Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying— a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. - 1 Timothy 2:1-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Timothy2:1-7&version=NKJV
There is no possible way that Paul means anything other than literally all men in this passage. The context doesn't allow it.
It's only when you mix and mash what was intended for only Israel with Paul's gospel to the world that you have to rip passages out of context from other places in the Bible and say, "well because of these passages, Paul must have meant only some, rather than all."
There is no possible way that Paul means anything other than literally all men in this passage. The context doesn't allow it.
It's only when you mix and mash what was intended for only Israel with Paul's gospel to the world that you have to rip passages out of context from other places in the Bible and say, "well because of these passages, Paul must have meant only some, rather than all."