Right, so do you think God would be impressed when an innocent person is convicted and executed for a crime they didn't commit?
I think he's saddened when justice is not upheld.
What's your point?
I'm not even arguing that it's a good thing when criminals go free anyway.
I should hope not. :think:
Arguing for a system (given by God, no less) that, due to man's inherent fallen nature, results in innocent people being unintentionally killed by mistake IS NOT the same as arguing for a system that intentionally kills the innocent just to make sure that no criminals go free.
Your straw man against my position is that I promote a system that intentionally kills the innocent. I do not. I promote a system that, because it inherently involves man, is not perfect, and recognize that there will be mistakes made BECAUSE it is not perfect due to man's inherent involvement.
If you accept that any system in place isn't going to be perfect
You should too.
and innocent people are going to be executed
Not on purpose.
In the current system, innocent people ARE executed, on purpose, by the criminals who are not punished appropriately, and it's because the system is unable to provide justice reliably.
if you don't have watertight convictions then tolerating innocent deaths is precisely what you're doing.
You fail to comprehend that watertight convictions are made regularly, and the criminal STILL goes free due to some technicality. Your standard is not good enough.
God's standard is two or three witnesses. :deadhorse:
That standard is there because even strong circumstantial evidence is enough to convict.
Oh, I'm not arguing that the current system is perfect.
:AMR:
It's not that it is not perfect (and it isn't). It's that it's a system of law, not justice.
There's too many technicalities and loopholes where violent offenders can be back on the streets and it needs improvement, there's the difference.
Death penalty and flogging and restitution solve those issues.
Any determined criminal is able to break out of a man-made prison. So why not put the criminals into a prison made by God, where there is no escape.
You haven't remotely explained how your system would minimize the loss of innocent life.
By deterring criminals from committing crimes. That's how. You protect the innocent by punishing the guilty.
It's impossible to prevent all crime. That's why it's better to deter criminals, so that they WON'T WANT to commit crimes.
That's why Barbarian's accusation against my position, that the death penalty "devalues" life, is a bad argument. Because at some point, those who have not committed murder, but want to, will realize that the government isn't going to let up on executing murderers, that it'll be all but guaranteed that if they murder, they will be executed, and they'll sit back and reconsider committing the crime, because they'll realize they value their life more than they want to commit a crime. Those who do not fear the government will obviously not respect the law, because currently there's nothing to fear. But when justice is swift and painful, criminals are deterred, because, whereas before they could murder and are practically guaranteed to live, in a justice system that enforces the death penalty, murderers are guaranteed to be executed, and not live.
There's no way you effectively could because if the evidence of two or three witnesses is sufficient to secure a guilty conviction then that would increase the number of innocent people falling victim.
No, it wouldn't.
Because, and since you haven't provided the common law punishment for perjury, I'm going to just assume you don't know or don't care, of the BIBLICAL punishment for bearing false witness, which is, whatever punishment is at stake in the trial, that is what is applied to the perjurer.
If someone wrongly accuses someone of theft, the accuser pays restitution.
If someone wrongly accuses someone of assault, the accuser is corporally punished.
If someone wrongly accuses someone of murder, or other capital crime, then the accuser will be put to death.
Since most criminals would rather save their own skins than face punishment for their crime, they would be deterred from committing the crime in the first place if punishment for their commission of a crime is all but guaranteed (barring them committing suicide before they're caught).
But bearing false witness goes beyond just mere accusations against the innocent. It also applies to those who are suspect trying to pass off blame for a crime.
Court cases require more than that before passing sentence,
And how often do the criminals in those cases STILL go unpunished? There's no guarantee of justice in the current systems. Any justice (to use a soundbite) is a random event in a mindless system.
especially in cases where someone's life hangs in the balance. Stop living in the old testament and get a grip.
God's standard of justice has remained the same since the world began. Stop trying to make it seem like He went to counseling and is nicer now. :mock:
In olden times there was no such thing as forensic evidence
Of course there was. Maybe not the technology we have, nor the knowledge of things that were then unknown, but saying there was "no forensic evidence" is at best a straw man, at worst a lie.
Forensic:
Adjective - relating to or denoting the application of scientific methods and techniques to the investigation of crime.
Noun - scientific tests or techniques used in connection with the detection of crime.
There were certainly methods for determining guilt back then, and even more so today. In fact, the technology we have today gives us NO EXCUSE for any injustice, as even without such technology, guilt can be determined easily.
or modern policing techniques.
So you think justice can only be meted out with modern techniques? :dunce:
Justice is simple. Someone steals, the punishment is restitution. Someone harms someone physically, corporal punishment equal to the harm caused. Someone commits a capital crime, the punishment is execution. There is no crime that cannot be punished that would not fall into those categories.
Do you think a God who abhors the shedding of innocent blood would be okay with people being executed where proof of their guilt hadn't been fully established?
I'll answer your question with questions of my own:
Do you think God (who abhors innocent being killed AND guilty being let go) is okay with people being killed by criminals who were let go instead of being punished according to His laws? Do you think that He is okay with the government making up their own punishments, instead of using His? Do you think that God, who knows what's best for criminals and innocent alike, did not consider all the possibilities when He gave His law?
I'm well aware of how to do it and I am not so petty as to report you.
Then quit complaining. I made my response, I'm not about to repost it just for you. Again, it's not my problem you refuse to
You might notice that I don't exactly threaten the cub reporters thread by way of but the fact is your post is breaking forum rules
Then you should righfully report it.
By not reporting it, you forfeit your right to complain about it, and all you're doing at this point is trying to derail the thread.
and what's more I'm not the only one to have nudged you on the habit.
And yet, not a single moderator has said anything to me about it.
There is absolutely no bloody need to multiquote to that extent where you end up with "War & Peace". Why you do it is anyone's guess.
:baby: :mock:
If you want a response then quote my response and yours or don't bother. I'm not mucking about with that block just because you can't post like a normal person.
:baby: :mock:
I honestly don't care either way if you respond. My only objective is to spread truth.
I could care less what you use. There's no need to post mammoth posts where you could do what pretty much everyone else does and reply separately to people individually. The multi quote function wasn't designed for the way you're using it. It's fine for short posts but you're just having a laugh.
:baby: :mock:
Quit yer whinin' if ya ain't gonna report me.
I post the way I post because it's easier.
