The Left has become dangerously unhinged.

JudgeRightly

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You're supposed to leave the loose crop in your fields for the poor;
Where does it say in that verse that the government is supposed to step in and take it by force, and then redistribute it to everyone in the nation?
Because all I see in that verse (and perhaps I'm missing something) is God telling the individual, to leave some grain for the one following behind the workers to do some work for themselves and gather wheat that is intentionally left on the ground BY THE WORKERS, not the government.
 

Town Heretic

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So whether or not @Town Heretic likes it or not, taxes are voluntary, so when one objects, his answer is "your free to leave the country" Amazing....I think I saw a video on this a long time ago...some movie producer made a documentary on this topic.
I thought you'd said this already and I'd responded, but maybe not.

If you go to the movies you pay the posted prices. You don't have to go to the movies. Our system has rules, prices for the benefits of the society. If you take those benefits and live in this society the prices are posted.

Theft is never voluntary. A thief will never give you the option to move along. :nono:
 

eider

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This is question begging. It assumes that God's standard of justice has changed regarding homosexuality and adultery.

Homosexuality and adultery are still just as bad in the New Testament as they are in the Old Testament. The punishment required by God did not change, only man's enforcement.



Because God's standard of righteousness DOES NOT CHANGE. God says to execute homosexuals, adulterers, rapists, murderers, and criminals who have committed other capital crimes. That's God's standard for justice. We should align our laws to His, because His standard is righteous.

And thankyou for that.
And so the 507 laws, His standard of righteousness DOES NOT CHANGE! And you therefore would need to grasp EVERY SINGLE LAW and keep to it's principle.
You quoted Jesus to support your belief, thus:-
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. - Matthew 5:18
Yes! And you must keep it all!

How many times have I quoted the above, and how many times have folks like you ducked back into the NT to avoid a law that you don't like? And yet you will be chanting 'gospel of grace' when kit next suits.

Your list of sentences was far from complete, there are many more than the ones which you want to enforce.
And you need to keep to the poor-laws and pay to support the poor, and you can pay for all children to be cared for and educated until adulthood while you're about it. No more ducking....... ?
 

eider

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I have not studied the poor laws as in depth as I have other laws, which is why I withhold my input on them.

And for how long have you been studying the bible to be a Judge?

THE POOR
Ex. 22:21 Ex. 22:24 Ex.23:5 Deut. 14:28-29 Deut. 15:2 Deut Deut. 15:7 15:9 Deut. 15:11 Deut.24:6 Deut. 24:10 Deut. 24:12 Deut. 24:17 Deut. 24:19 -20 -21 Lev.19:9 Lev.19:10 Lev. 23:22
 

eider

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So, if you own a plumbing business, you should leave ??? for the poor to glean?

Bathroom fixtures?

Left over rolls of solder?

Old pipe?

Take it all away with you.......... and pay your taxes.
But large retailers should not deliberately smash up old stock before chucking it in skips...... much of it has value.

If you want to do it, your heart will guide you. If you don't want to do it you'll think of silly suggestions.
:idunno:
 

JudgeRightly

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And for how long have you been studying the bible to be a Judge?

About 3-4 years.


Thank you for providing these verses. Let's look at them

Ex. 22:21,24

Let's look at these two within context.

“You shall neither mistreat a stranger nor oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.
“You shall not afflict any widow or fatherless child. If you afflict them in any way, and they cry at all to Me, I will surely hear their cry; and My wrath will become hot, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless. - Exodus 22:21-24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus22:21-24&version=NKJV

So, in my Bible (NKJV), verse 21 and verses 22 through 24 are two paragraphs, as is every other individual command in this chapter.

Also interesting to note is that verse 16 onwards is subtitled "Moral and Ceremonial Principles."

So, verse 21 being in a separate paragraph, and not mentioning any punishment for mistreating or oppressing a stranger, also consider that God says that Israel all of Israel were strangers in Egypt.

That last point makes verse 21 a symbolic ordinance. Not that it would be ok for anyone to mistreat or oppress a stranger, but that this command was intended specifically for Israel.

As for 22-24, again, since God is involving Himself in the punishment, and not the government, this is a law specifically for Israel, and again, not that it's ok to afflict a widow or fatherless child.

Neither command, in any case, is specifically for the poor.


If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying under its burden, and you would refrain from helping it, you shall surely help him with it. - Exodus 23:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus23:5&version=NKJV

If you're saying this is a law concerning the poor, you're not too bright.

if someone owns a donkey, they're not necessarily poor. In fact, in those times (afaik), if someone owned a donkey, they probably weren't poor.

Either way, this law only applies to someone if they would refrain from helping their neighbor's donkey which is struggling under it's burden.

Deut. 14:28-29

“At the end of every third year you shall bring out the tithe of your produce of that year and store it up within your gates. And the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the stranger and the fatherless and the widow who are within your gates, may come and eat and be satisfied, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do. - Deuteronomy 14:28-29 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy14:28-29&version=NKJV

This is a law intended only for Israel. How do I know this? Because it's speaking of the Levites, which are Israelites.

Deut. 15:2,7,9,11

I find it interesting how you sort of hopscotched over many of the verses here.

Let's look at the full segment.


“At the end of every seven years you shall grant a release of debts.



This is something that, if I were King of America, I would implement, even though it's directed at Israel (see 4-5)


And this is the form of the release: Every creditor who has lent anything to his neighbor shall release it; he shall not require it of his neighbor or his brother, because it is called the Lord’s release.



"The Year of the Lord's Release" would occur every seventh year, and it would be a year where all debts are released. This promotes economic growth, because for example, you wouldn't have loan payments lasting longer than 7 years, so things would inherently be cheaper and more affordable.


Of a foreigner you may require it;



Notice it doesn't say "should." Meaning it depends on the circumstances.


but you shall give up your claim to what is owed by your brother,



Basically, just forgiving any debt owed.


except when there may be no poor among you;



Keep this in mind when you read verse 11 below...


for the Lord will greatly bless you in the land which the Lord your God is giving you to possess as an inheritance—only if you carefully obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe with care all these commandments which I command you today. For the Lord your God will bless you just as He promised you;



This indicates God is speaking directly to Israel.


you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow; you shall reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over you.
“If there is among you a poor man of your brethren, within any of the gates in your land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart nor shut your hand from your poor brother, but you shall open your hand wide to him and willingly lend him sufficient for his need, whatever he needs.



This is directed directly at Israel. It is not for all nations to follow. God has the right to tell his people to be charitable to their neighbor, and to warn them against wicked thoughts.

An earthly government, on the other hand, DOES NOT have the right to compel charity, nor is it even able to regulate the thoughts of men. We should be cheerful givers, to be sure. But only God can arbitrarily make such a law.


Beware lest there be a wicked thought in your heart, saying, ‘The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand,’ and your eye be evil against your poor brother and you give him nothing, and he cry out to the Lord against you, and it become sin among you. You shall surely give to him, and your heart should not be grieved when you give to him, because for this thing the Lord your God will bless you in all your works and in all to which you put your hand.



Again, God can see what's in a man's heart, a government cannot.


For the poor will never cease from the land;



Remember from verses 3-4?


therefore I command you, saying, ‘You shall open your hand wide to your brother, to your poor and your needy, in your land.’ - Deuteronomy 15:1-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy15:1-11&version=NKJV



Context is important. It helps you understand what is being said and to whom.

Deut.24:6,10,12,17,19-21

Cherry picking verses out of the Bible doesn't work except to lead to confusion.


"Miscellaneous laws"
“When a man has taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war or be charged with any business; he shall be free at home one year, and bring happiness to his wife whom he has taken.



Pretty straightforward.


“No man shall take the lower or the upper millstone in pledge, for he takes one’s living in pledge.



A millstone is what someone uses to grind up grain to make flower. You don't take someone's livelihood away from them as a pledge, because then they can't pay you back, as you've taken their only source of income away from them.

This applies to all.


“If a man is found kidnapping any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and mistreats him or sells him, then that kidnapper shall die; and you shall put away the evil from among you.



Put to death kidnappers.


“Take heed in an outbreak of leprosy, that you carefully observe and do according to all that the priests, the Levites, shall teach you; just as I commanded them, so you shall be careful to do. Remember what the Lord your God did to Miriam on the way when you came out of Egypt!



This is addressed to Israel, as leprosy for the most part isn't as much of an issue now as it was back then.


“When you lend your brother anything, you shall not go into his house to get his pledge. You shall stand outside, and the man to whom you lend shall bring the pledge out to you. And if the man is poor, you shall not keep his pledge overnight. You shall in any case return the pledge to him again when the sun goes down, that he may sleep in his own garment and bless you; and it shall be righteousness to you before the Lord your God.



Pretty straight forward. Accountability is the issue here, not the poor.


“You shall not oppress a hired servant who is poor and needy, whether one of your brethren or one of the aliens who is in your land within your gates. Each day you shall give him his wages, and not let the sun go down on it, for he is poor and has set his heart on it; lest he cry out against you to the Lord, and it be sin to you.



Pay those whom you've hired.


“Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.



Straightforward.


“You shall not pervert justice due the stranger or the fatherless, nor take a widow’s garment as a pledge. But you shall remember that you were a slave in Egypt, and the Lord your God redeemed you from there; therefore I command you to do this thing.



This is addressed to Israel, but applies to all.

You don't show partiality to anyone under the law.


“When you reap your harvest in your field, and forget a sheaf in the field, you shall not go back to get it; it shall be for the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. When you beat your olive trees, you shall not go over the boughs again; it shall be for the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow. When you gather the grapes of your vineyard, you shall not glean it afterward; it shall be for the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow. And you shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt; therefore I command you to do this thing. - Deuteronomy 24:5-22 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy24:5-22&version=NKJV



See my previous response to this earlier in the thread.

Lev.19:9-10

‘When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest.And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger: I am the Lord your God. - Leviticus 19:9-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus19:9-10&version=NKJV

Deuteronomy is the second time this law is given to Israel. Deuteronomy literally means "second law." It's the second giving of the law.

Leviticus is the first time. See my response earlier in this thread to this law.

Lev. 23:22

Part of the Feast of Weeks, which makes this a symbolic ordinance, and not one for any other government to follow.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
remember how i told you once that your choice of language occasionally seemed pointlessly confrontational?
And thankyou for that.
And so the 507 laws, His standard of righteousness DOES NOT CHANGE! And you therefore would need to grasp EVERY SINGLE LAW and keep to it's principle.
You quoted Jesus to support your belief, thus:-
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. - Matthew 5:18
Yes! And you must keep it all!

How many times have I quoted the above, and how many times have folks like you ducked back into the NT to avoid a law that you don't like? And yet you will be chanting 'gospel of grace' when kit next suits.

Your list of sentences was far from complete, there are many more than the ones which you want to enforce.
And you need to keep to the poor-laws and pay to support the poor, and you can pay for all children to be cared for and educated until adulthood while you're about it. No more ducking....... ?


if you're uncertain as to why i bolded those particular parts, i'll be glad to elaborate


btw, still waiting for you over here :)
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
You're supposed to leave the loose crop in your fields for the poor;


when i harvest the crop in my field, i leave all of it - it all goes to the birds and the critters and whoever wants it

i suspect you do the same

Spoiler
thc-33-tips-mowing-lawn-featured.jpg
 
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ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
So, if you own a plumbing business, you should leave ??? for the poor to glean?

Bathroom fixtures?

Left over rolls of solder?

Old pipe?

Take it all away with you..........

obviously you've never been poor (or a plumber)- the scrap value of metal bathroom fixtures is high, especially those older ones that are brass/bronze

copper pipe is valuable

lead solder is valuable

heck, even galvanized pipe is getting 5 cents a pound


of course, it's a lot of work for the poor to gather it all up and take it to the scrap yard

much easier for them to just get their welfare check in the mail, eh?
 

eider

Well-known member
Let's look at these two within context.
Within context? Lovely! That means that I can quote the verses immediately before......
I'll just focus upon your reading of Ex22.21-24 this morning..... short on time.

Also interesting to note is that verse 16 onwards is subtitled "Moral and Ceremonial Principles."
Who wrote that? Why don't you just read from Exodus?
And please note that verses 16 onwards include demands such as you have grasped to before and would certainly execute for if you could. So these laws are ALL very important (like all of the 507)

So, verse 21 being in a separate paragraph, and not mentioning any punishment for mistreating or oppressing a stranger, also consider that God says that Israel all of Israel were strangers in Egypt.
And so, do you feel that you can ignore and dismiss God's laws if warning of punishment is not published?
Interesting. And I think that you have misread the para...... the children of Israel WERE strangers, all of them, as a people, in Egypt.
Note: You really don't want to help the poor....... do you! ?

That last point makes verse 21 a symbolic ordinance. Not that it would be ok for anyone to mistreat or oppress a stranger, but that this command was intended specifically for Israel.
ALL of the laws were intended for Israel. You don't actually think that the surrounding tribes were expected to obey them, do you?

As for 22-24, again, since God is involving Himself in the punishment, and not the government, this is a law specifically for Israel, and again, not that it's ok to afflict a widow or fatherless child.
You think that God needs to use swords? You've already pointed lout that you think that verses 16 onwards are either ceremonial or moral laws. Clearly this law isn't ceremonial, and so, like sleeping with beasts (before) it's very very moral in its legislation.

Neither command, in any case, is specifically for the poor.
You think that a fatherless child or a widow (back then) was living comfortably?

I don't know about your country, but where I live such laws could possibly have been in our common-law, I might look at that some other time. You really don't like coughing up your dollars for the welfare of the poor, the sick and the oppressed, do you? !!

I will be reviewing the whole post as I find time, but at first sight this looks to me as if you are going to struggle and wriggle and wrangle in efforts to avoid and evade obeying these laws. It's almost a joke, because the laws only a couple of verses before these are:-
{22:18} Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. {22:19} Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put
to death.................... and I expect that you would be supporting such executions with some zeal?
 

eider

Well-known member
If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying under its burden, and you would refrain from helping it, you shall surely help him with it. - Exodus 23:5 If you're saying this is a law con...rry picking, I think. Next one tomorrow......
 

eider

Well-known member
“At the end of every third year you shall bring out the tithe of your produce of that year and store it up within your gates. And the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the stranger and the fatherless and the widow who are within your gates, may come and eat and be satisfied, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do. - Deuteronomy 14:28-29 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy14:28-29&version=NKJV
This is a law intended only for Israel. How do I know this? Because it's speaking of the Levites, which are Israelites.
Oh don't worry about the Levites! You are going to give to the stranger, the orphan and the widow who come for succour! ALL of the laws of the OT were for the Israelites...... you don't actually think that the surrounding tribes kep to them, do you?
Ergo, anybody can argue that these laws were only for Israelites. But you don't...... you cling to the laws that you would use if your Church ever might control a land or more.
More later.......
 
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