The Left has become dangerously unhinged.

[intojoy]

Their right to make and enforce laws of all sorts. Absolutely. And one of the great things about our form of government is that we can change those laws, which I favor on the point.


I didn't, though to be clearer I could have said, that his death illustrates the problem with the death penalty. That's implied, but I can see where you read it the way you did.



It's an illustration of the inherent problem of a penalty that cannot be met with recompense. If we falsely imprison a man at least we can make some restitution and release him. My first argument against the DP is in that problem. We do and know that we do what we have no right to. And given the irreversible nature of that failure it is unique.


This has never been about authority. I've read Romans. I've read 1st Peter, and my objection isn't that governments can't, but that they shouldn't. And I've just told you one of the reasons why, if I hadn't already (I'm talking to a couple of people in a couple of places about this, so I can't recall precisely where we are in the conversation as I type this).


Or, God instituted something necessary and just, hard as the law was hard before Christ, under a different system wherein certainty of guilt was required, meaning only the guilty should be put to death and put to death for a moral offense. Then Christ came.


Animal for most. Not for a few sins. For a few the blood of the sinner was required. Recall, this is not a secular command in a secular state, concerned with the secular repercussions of the act.


You are. The law served a number of purposes. One of those was to illustrate our inability to meet the demands of justice, our need for intercession and mercy. God doesn't have to change anything about His nature to alter His relation with us (see: covenants).


I've answered on what Paul literally said. Your understanding of it is just that. So I'm leaving off you repeating what you'd stated earlier and my inevitable repetition in response to the same points.


Answered above.


I think you have to hold that to hold onto your position. Obviously, I don't relegate the sacrifice of Christ in this world merely to the next. The woman he pardoned at the well wasn't pardoned only for the next world. I think it's broader and bigger than you credit.


The woman at the well hadn't. But I'd be willing to bet she strove mightily in gratitude to meet his prohibition.


Every man fears death, unless he's insane, in which case nothing will move him. It isn't a want of fear of death that moves men to sin, which is why Solomon and David, for all their reasons to be grateful and obedient, for all their wisdom and blessing, sinned.

I fell five stories back in 2011 and on my way down I did not once think I was going to die. No fear at all, zero

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[ok doser]

Christ's does not apply to those who reject Him.

but that isn't faaaiiirrrrr! :baby:

 

[Lon]

I read all of your post. I am responding 'in short' because it is so late.
You asked when did I last stone a homosexual......... in reply I ask, 'why did you pick that law out of 507 laws'? So many folks go straight to the adultery and homosexual offences, ignoring the fact that they bust hundreds of laws that could have brought down death sentences upon them.

1) Current events 2) an extreme that no Christian follows. 3) A good example of at LEAST ONE law we do not follow.

It was chosen specifically to get us both on the same page. Neither of us does this. The next question then: Why? This is important to this conversation: A) Because we are not Jews B) Because we are under Grace and so is our actions. The whole economy of God's plan of redemption rests in Christ alone.

This necessarily means you and I must be discerning about what we take from the O.T. We certainly can learn of the seriousness of sin, regarding stoning BUT we certainly must never do it. That individual is under the hope of grace. While society will continue the death penalty, my hope is in Christ, even for the worst offenders. They need Christ and His Salvation.

Fact is, the OT laws demanded hundreds of obediences for the strength, cohesion, security, increase and success of the people. Not one of the laws cannot be explained as a support for one or all of the above, and yet Christians do tend to dump hundreds whilst grasping for a few. And then, when faced with such accusations, they race into the warmth of the New Testament for righteousness. The sacrificial laws are not included in the 507.

My suggestion, Read Galatians? It is, imho, better coming from God than me. Please, if you can hammer out about 15 minutes, please read Galatians. We can discuss key verses from there. I have provided a glimpse of my answer above as well.

The Old laws demanded that the people would support and provide for the poor....... that is a law, and if governments would wish to provide military protection, criminal and civil law, etc.... then it certainly should make provision for poor and needy at the expense of the people, as clearly shown in the OT. Paul never repealed that, and I do wonder why so many Christians reach for Paul's teachings before those of Jesus.

I might agree with you on some or most of this, but my particular entrance in thread was specifically to talk about taxes and whether the Lord encouraged them or not. The tithe was giving to God. Taxes are not. As I said before, however, I'm not against taxes. I'm against bleeding normal people for the poor in overtaxation. I'm against misappropriation of taxes (as are we all) and against giving my taxes to causes that are not moral for me to support (like abortion).

 

[ok doser]

The tithe was giving to God. Taxes are not.

:thumb:

 

[Town Heretic]

I fell five stories back in 2011 and on my way down I did not once think I was going to die. No fear at all, zero

We have a lot of folks like that in the South. Sometimes they post videos that begin with, "Watch this!" Sometimes their families have to post them.

 

[eider]

The Noahic Covenant is an everlasting covenant and thus its provisions are still in effect.


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OK.... but laws such as Deut 15:7 & Deut. 15:11 can just be ignored....... not everlasting. Is that right?
Provision for the poor is an OT law, together with about 20 other laws for their benefit which some Christians will not recognise, whilst clinging to support execution and violent punishments for LGBT lifestyles, theft, etc.....?

This looks more like some kind of 'Sharia-law' by the post.

One member has suggested that the poor-laws were never intended to be legislated for or controlled by government, and I now wonder how many other laws might be imposed without government...? Is this 'Small Government' with 'Severe punishment' a kind of vigilante controlled enforcement, ion which case it is looking very much like Muslim Sharia....?

This all looks dark.....

 

[eider]

Without Christ being put to death for our sins (for the wages of sin is death), no man could ever be saved (Psalm 49:7-9, 15).

The wages of sin = death was why ALL the 507 were written. There is not one law which, if discarded, would not or could not lead on to the failure, destruction, death of the whole people. Every law written helped to secure, increase, keep healthy and make successful the whole people. ........ back in the day.

Jesus (and no doubt the Baptist) campaigned for the return of them all, many ignored and discarded by a greedy, quisling, hypocritical and corrupted priesthood. But even he clearly did not support public executions!

It begins to look as if you have selected writings from any page which would support some kind of 'small government with local vigilante enforcement' a kind of control not dissimilar to Muslim Sharia, whilst supporting payments to government for, say, a vast military machine. This seems to be so far removed from anything the Jesus stood for that it seems distorted out-of-sight to many other Christian visions.

 

[eider]

1) Thankyou for the time that you took....,..,
Current events 2) an extreme that no Christian follows. 3) A good example of at LEAST ONE law we do not follow.

I am a Deist, so when you write 'we' you are writing for some Churches or Creeds of Christianity. I was first attracted to TOL because I thought that people from many faiths, beliefs and religions would discuss and debate here. I stayed because I have been fascinated by some of the members here.

Now........ your 2)& 3) are clearly not correct. I know folks who strongly believe that they are Christians and who support LGBT people. Further to that many many countries are now legislating to support such folks so that they can live their lifestyles as safely and securely as possible.

It was chosen specifically to get us both on the same page. Neither of us does this. The next question then: Why? This is important to this conversation: A) Because we are not Jews B) Because we are under Grace and so is our actions. The whole economy of God's plan of redemption rests in Christ alone.

If the whole economy rests in Christ, then Christians need to come together to agree exactly which writings from the bible they believe should guide and form their communities. If you insist that you won't embrace a particular law because you're not a Jew (forget the sacrificials..... Jesus was no longer interested in those) then you might produce a bible which is relevant for you which excludes any passage that you don't want to to follow. Then the World can and will scrutinise all......

This necessarily means you and I must be discerning about what we take from the O.T. We certainly can learn of the seriousness of sin, regarding stoning BUT we certainly must never do it. That individual is under the hope of grace. While society will continue the death penalty, my hope is in Christ, even for the worst offenders. They need Christ and His Salvation.

Oh....... very very good. Now that's my idea of Christianity and what a Christian is, not that you should take much heed of what a Deist thinks. Jesus was discerning about what he took from the OT...... the priesthood had descended into a corrupted bunch of hypocrites enjoying a fat living off the masses without any integrity at all. But he most certainly (imo) does support the poor-laws!

My suggestion, Read Galatians? It is, imho, better coming from God than me. Please, if you can hammer out about 15 minutes, please read Galatians. We can discuss key verses from there. I have provided a glimpse of my answer above as well.

I will.......... I must sign off now but will scrutinise Galations very closely this pm. I cannot recognise Paul as an authority for Jesus but I'm interested because you obviously do. I need to come back on that.

 

[intojoy]

OK.... but laws such as Deut 15:7 & Deut. 15:11 can just be ignored....... not everlasting. Is that right?
Provision for the poor is an OT law, together with about 20 other laws for their benefit which some Christians will not recognise, whilst clinging to support execution and violent punishments for LGBT lifestyles, theft, etc.....?

This looks more like some kind of 'Sharia-law' by the post.

One member has suggested that the poor-laws were never intended to be legislated for or controlled by government, and I now wonder how many other laws might be imposed without government...? Is this 'Small Government' with 'Severe punishment' a kind of vigilante controlled enforcement, ion which case it is looking very much like Muslim Sharia....?

This all looks dark.....

This passage tells us that God made the Mosaic Covenant with Moses as a temporary one that would be replaced.

The Noahic Covenant is still in effect and the Law of Christ is also in effect by way of the commands found in the New Testament.



“For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.”
**Hebrews‬ *8:7-9‬ *KJV‬‬
http://bible.com/1/heb.8.7-9.kjv


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[intojoy]

The wages of sin = death was why ALL the 507 were written. There is not one law which, if discarded, would not or could not lead on to the failure, destruction, death of the whole people. Every law written helped to secure, increase, keep healthy and make successful the whole people. ........ back in the day.

Jesus (and no doubt the Baptist) campaigned for the return of them all, many ignored and discarded by a greedy, quisling, hypocritical and corrupted priesthood. But even he clearly did not support public executions!

It begins to look as if you have selected writings from any page which would support some kind of 'small government with local vigilante enforcement' a kind of control not dissimilar to Muslim Sharia, whilst supporting payments to government for, say, a vast military machine. This seems to be so far removed from anything the Jesus stood for that it seems distorted out-of-sight to many other Christian visions.

The only case for capital punishment is premeditated murder. However, New Testament law also dictates that the ruling government can impose laws that execute for whatever crimes they decide and believers are to accept them. But you’re right in that adherence to the 610 laws of Moses are not to be followed in and under the authority of that law because it has been rendered inoperative.

Hope this helps. It’s just a matter of time before it’s found and Sherwoman gives me a brief holiday again.


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[eider]

This passage tells us that God made the Mosaic Covenant with Moses as a temporary one that would be replaced.

The Noahic Covenant is still in effect and the Law of Christ is also in effect by way of the commands found in the New Testament.



“For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.”
**Hebrews‬ *8:7-9‬ *KJV‬‬
http://bible.com/1/heb.8.7-9.kjv


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OK.......... and so, drawing only from the NT, is there any mention of executing criminals, esp Gays and adulterers? Why do so many Christians race to the OT laws to in order to support their bloody-thirsty ideas about law?

 

[JudgeRightly]

The only case for capital punishment is premeditated murder.

However, New Testament law

"New Testament law?"

There is God's law, and there is man's law. God's law has not changed.

also dictates that the ruling government can impose laws that execute for whatever crimes they decide

No, it doesn't. It says they will, but that doesn't mean they are within their rights as a government to do so.

and believers are to accept them.

Killing someone for anything other than a capital crime is unjust, and citizens should protest when their government commits or allows injustice.

But you’re right in that adherence to the 610 laws of Moses are not to be followed in and under the authority of that law because it has been rendered inoperative.

Not what Jesus said:

[JESUS]For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.[/JESUS] - Matthew 5:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew5:18&version=NKJV

Nor what Paul says:

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. - Romans 3:31 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:31&version=NKJV

Hope this helps. It’s just a matter of time before it’s found and Sherwoman gives me a brief holiday again.

 

[eider]

The only case for capital punishment is premeditated murder. However, New Testament law also dictates that the ruling government can impose laws that execute for whatever crimes they decide and believers are to accept them. But you’re right in that adherence to the 610 laws of Moses are not to be followed in and under the authority of that law because it has been rendered inoperative.

Please could you save me a huge search and point me to the NT writings where ruling government can imnpose Capital punishments?

Hope this helps. It’s just a matter of time before it’s found and Sherwoman gives me a brief holiday again.

Why would you get moderated for any of the above? *shocked*

 

[eider]

"New Testament law?"

There is God's law, and there is man's law. God's law has not changed.



No, it doesn't. It says they will, but that doesn't mean they are within their rights as a government to do so.



Killing someone for anything other than a capital crime is unjust, and citizens should protest when their government commits or allows injustice.



Not what Jesus said:

[JESUS]For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.[/JESUS] - Matthew 5:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew5:18&version=NKJV

Nor what Paul says:

Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. - Romans 3:31 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:31&version=NKJV

There you go......... clinging to OT laws when it suits, but dismissing the poor-laws, presumably because you don't want to have to pay up?

 

[JudgeRightly]

OK.......... and so, drawing only from the NT, is there any mention of executing criminals, esp Gays and adulterers?

This is question begging. It assumes that God's standard of justice has changed regarding homosexuality and adultery.

Homosexuality and adultery are still just as bad in the New Testament as they are in the Old Testament. The punishment required by God did not change, only man's enforcement.

Why do so many Christians race to the OT laws to in order to support their bloody-thirsty ideas about law?

Because God's standard of righteousness DOES NOT CHANGE. God says to execute homosexuals, adulterers, rapists, murderers, and criminals who have committed other capital crimes. That's God's standard for justice. We should align our laws to His, because His standard is righteous.

 

[JudgeRightly]

There you go......... clinging to OT laws when it suits, but dismissing the poor-laws, presumably because you don't want to have to pay up?

You have yet to show me where governments are supposed to take money from their citizens and redistribute it.

I have not studied the poor laws as in depth as I have other laws, which is why I withhold my input on them.

 

[JudgeRightly]

[MENTION=7640]Town Heretic[/MENTION] I'm still working on my response to you. Please be patient.

 

[ok doser]

There you go......... clinging to OT laws when it suits, but dismissing the poor-laws, presumably....

never mind the presuming

list "the poor-laws"

let's see if they say what you think they say

 

[fool]

You have yet to show me where governments are supposed to take money from their citizens and redistribute it.

You're supposed to leave the loose crop in your fields for the poor;

Leviticus 19:10
You must not strip your vineyard bare or gather its fallen grapes. Leave them for the poor and the sojourner. I am the LORD your God.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You're supposed to leave the loose crop in your fields for the poor;

Where does it say in that verse that the government is supposed to step in and take it by force, and then redistribute it to everyone in the nation?