The Law of Moses Has Not Been Abolished

[Jerry Shugart]

"The Law is now in abeyance"... oh my...i mean dont get me wrong it does seem like it when I look around but...

How did you come up with that?

The Law given by Moses was in three parts and not just the Ten Commandments. Also included in the Law were the "ordinances" which governed the religious life of Israel (including the day of atonement which cleansed the Israelites from their sins) and the "judgments," which governed the social life of Israel.

These three parts worked together and if one part was changed then the whole system was changed. When the Lord became High Priest the law of Moses as a "whole" was changed:

"For, the priesthood being changed, there takes place of necessity a change of law also....For there is a setting aside of the commandment going before for its weakness and unprofitableness, (for the law perfected nothing,) and the introduction of a better hope by which we draw nigh to God"(Heb.7:12,18-19).​

So is sin suspended too? Because without the Law I am inclined to think there is no sin pointed out...

For the Christian we are under the commandments which were given to us by Christ (1 Thess.4:2) and the rest of mankind will be under the law which is written in their heart of which the conscience bears witness (Ro.2:14-15).

 

[Shasta]

I never denied there will be a throne He sits on...I just deny it will be made by human hands...certainly not jesuit Zionists of babylon...

Right they confused restoration of israel as a world power...being Jewish does that...Peter needed even further vision to see gentiles were not unclean...and no not to eat but to fellowship with...

Yahushua answered as He did because they do not know what time this SPIRITUAL event would occur...

if it is a TEMPORAL achievement one would be able to estimate about when it will occur...but it is spiritual as only the Father knows when He will do it...

ummm...sure...He will be the King and we Israel you know His people that church in the wilderness as it was called by Stephen...we will be worshipping from new moon to new moon Sabbath to Sabbath...His will on earth as it is in Heaven...

But jesuit Zionists will not have built this kingdom...at all...it will have descended from heaven...



What literally like the disciples? None. Again I never denied a temporal kingdom would be restored...literal physcical temporal yes...but not by temporal means...not through power politics war NWO jesuit Zionists...etc

And when you say restored to Israel I disagree that it is this apostate zionist state of jews...but well that church begun in the wilderness...believers who obey and represent as good citizens do

You frequently use this phrase "Jesuit Zionist." Are you asserting these groups formed a political/religious alliance to establish Israel or is their alliance merely "spiritual?" It certainly did not look like the Vatican was sympathetic to the Jews during WWII. This term has the scent of conspiracy-mongering. After all, what better enemy could people of a certain mindset invent than one which combines both Catholics and Jews together into an alliance called "Babylon?" I do not believe we have sufficient evidence of what exactly what "Babylon" is. Mostly what I hear is elaborate speculation.

I have yet to meet a believer who posits that the state of Israel as it is today is "the rock carved without hands" which will destroy the worlds kingdoms and lead to the establishment of the Messianic Kingdom. It might be that someone claims that I have just not met them. No government in the world is equivalent to that Kingdom. Still, it certainly seems that the re-gathering of Jews to their homeland is a fulfillment of prophecy and a prelude of things to come. We can believe that and even support Israel and not hold that they are a fulfillment of the Messianic Kingdom. The founders of Israel who were Atheists would not have claimed that.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Still, it certainly seems that the re-gathering of Jews to their homeland is a fulfillment of prophecy and a prelude of things to come. We can believe that and even support Israel and not hold that they are a fulfillment of the Messianic Kingdom. The founders of Israel who were Atheists would not have claimed that.

Good point. The LORD will gather the Jews to the promised land and then He will give them new hearts:

"For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh" (Ez.36:24-26).​

 

[Shasta]

Good point. The LORD will gather the Jews to the promised land and then He will give them new hearts:

"For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh" (Ez.36:24-26).​

At one time in my life I lived in Israel not with tourists but among the people in a neighborhood where hardly anyone spoke English. While there I met a lot of Christians who were quasi-Zionists. That never set well with me because they tended to act as if the non-believing Jews already had an active status as children of God. I believed that this status would only be restored (on a national scale) in the future. In the meantime I was to show compassion just as I would any lost group of people. I also was to respect all that the Lord had done through them historically, just as Paul did in Romans 9.

 

[jamie]

Even traditional Jewish sources discuss that. There are opinions in the Talmud that Moses did not write those verses.

He might have used a ghost writer.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

While there I met a lot of Christians who were quasi-Zionists. That never set well with me because they tended to act as if the non-believing Jews already had an active status as children of God.

I wonder how those people view this prophecy?:

"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God" (Ezek.13:8-9).​

 

[clefty]

The Law given by Moses was in three parts and not just the Ten Commandments. Also included in the Law were the "ordinances" which governed the religious life of Israel (including the day of atonement which cleansed the Israelites from their sins) and the "judgments," which governed the social life of Israel.

ok wow thanks for that...which part was abolished? What was nailed to the cross? What part of the Law is forever?

These three parts worked together and if one part was changed then the whole system was changed. When the Lord became High Priest the law of Moses as a "whole" was changed:

"For, the priesthood being changed, there takes place of necessity a change of law also....For there is a setting aside of the commandment going before for its weakness and unprofitableness, (for the law perfected nothing,) and the introduction of a better hope by which we draw nigh to God"(Heb.7:12,18-19).​

Yum yes the lower case "L" law was changed not the upper case "Law" was changed...specifically the law of priesthood...that is the admininistration of the Law...and luckily for we are all now a priestly nation...establishing the Law of God.

For the Christian we are under the commandments which were given to us by Christ (1 Thess.4:2) and the rest of mankind will be under the law which is written in their heart of which the conscience bears witness (Ro.2:14-15).

so its how many sets of laws?

Think NOT He came to destroy...and by your definiation of fulfill you destroys it as if it no longer applies...so think NOT ok?

Its pretty clear "here are they that keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ" notice one does not supplant the other...you do notice that yes?

What was His testimony? Not LORD LORD but those that DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN...

His will on earth as it is in Heaven...One Law for native and non native...just like in the church in the wilderness...you part of that church yes? Citizen? Grafted in to bear more similar fruit not less similar?

 

[john w]

I wonder how those people view this prophecy?:

"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God" (Ezek.13:8-9).​

Yes, or no-is the law abolished?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes, or no-is the law abolished?

The Law of Moses is in abeyance. It will once again be in force in the future:

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate" (Dan.9:27).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Right they confused restoration of israel as a world power...being Jewish does that...Peter needed even further vision to see gentiles were not unclean...and no not to eat but to fellowship with...

So the Apostles were confused about the kingdom being restored to Israel. Even though they had been with the King for forty days while He tutored them about the Kingdom?

So I am supposed to believe that you are right and they were in error?

Unlike you, I cannot trick my mind into believing something that ridiculous!

Yum yes the lower case "L" law was changed not the upper case "Law" was changed...specifically the law of priesthood...that is the admininistration of the Law...and luckily for we are all now a priestly nation...establishing the Law of God.

So are you saying that the lower case "L" law was changed in this passage:

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law" (Jas.2:10-11).​

 

[clefty]

So the Apostles were confused about the kingdom being restored to Israel.

No surprise they missed that too...they hadn't believed He was resurrected either...

do recall Rome occupied the land and not too comfortably and the poor Jews were dreaming of days of old...but one Jew wasn't...wonder if you notice the difference in what he waited for:

Luke 2:25 At that time there was a man in Jerusalem named Simeon. He was righteous and devout and was eagerly waiting for the Messiah to come and rescue Israel. The Holy Spirit was upon him 26 and had revealed to him that he would not die until he had seen the Lord’s Messiah. 27 That day the Spirit led him to the Temple. So when Mary and Joseph came to present the baby Jesus to the Lord as the law required, 28 Simeon was there. He took the child in his arms and praised God, saying,

29 “Sovereign Lord, now let your servant die in peace,
as you have promised.
30 I have seen your salvation,
31 which you have prepared for all people.
32 He is a light to reveal God to the nations,
and he is the glory of your people Israel!”
33 Jesus’ parents were amazed at what was being said about him. 34 Then Simeon blessed them, and he said to Mary, the baby’s mother, “This child is destined to cause many in Israel to fall, and many others to rise. He has been sent as a sign from God, but many will oppose him. 35 As a result, the deepest thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your very soul.”

Hope you caught the divine subtlety of exactly what was the Glory of Israel...

Even though they had been with the King for forty days while He tutored them about the Kingdom?

well you imagine that is what He tutored but we have clear indication His kingdom was not of this world and from that we can see why it would a secret as to when it was to occur...and is why they asked...any real plans to rebuild temporal Israel or overthrow Rome would be more specific...they even missed it would not occur in their lifetimes...

So I am supposed to believe that you are right and they were in error?

so the fact it took a vision to clarify to Peter that the kingdom was for goyim too is then a change of plans for Israel's political sovereignty? Maybe an abandonment? Or maybe Peter missed it again...he was prone to do so after all...and it had to be revealed to him again what old Simeon knew...it was about all nations

Unlike you, I cannot trick my mind into believing something that ridiculous!

no your mind was not tricked is true...tricks are instant but deceptions take longer...this jesuit zionist babylon anti christ thingy is centuries old...not a trick but programming, propoganda, otherwise known as idolatry

So are you saying that the lower case "L" law was changed in this passage:

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law" (Jas.2:10-11).​

But of course, you see? Lower case "L" includes upper case "L" Law...not the other way around...and as it was in the the church in the wilderness as Stephen called it, there was NO ONE that kept the whole law...all have sinned...

the big sins and the little jots and tittles, the greatest the least...the law points it out...and when you break the big "L" Law like dont kill it is as if you broke the big "L" Law of dont commit adultery...you break one you break the law...

And to think all this was even amplified with His upping the ante by reminding dont kill < dont be angry

Like in sports a foul is a foul...is a foul...do it once no problem keep playing...deny it argue it keep doing it...you're ejected...it dont matter what it is...

Try to keep the law...you will fail...duh

Play the game for the love of it...you might win

All of it was to learn "mercy rather than sacrifice" ironic no?

 

[musterion]

That never set well with me because they tended to act as if [any] Jews already had an active status as children of God.

No MAD can be included in that. No one, Jew or Gentile, who rejects the Gospel of Grace is of God, for Paul says they remain in unbelief.

 

[clefty]

No MAD can be included in that. No one, Jew or Gentile, who rejects the Gospel of Grace is of God, for Paul says they remain in unbelief.

But until they do accept the gospel let's help them rebuild and establish the kingdom of earth...they are useful to us for that end

 

[musterion]

But until they do accept the gospel let's help them rebuild and establish the kingdom of earth...they are useful to us for that end

You work for Satan, false prosopon.

 

[clefty]

You work for Satan, false prosopon.

Oh my...actually I dont as I want nothing to do with his earthly kingdom...I am more inclined to wait with the Orthodox Jews who know this zionist state is apostate...

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No surprise they missed that too...they hadn't believed He was resurrected either...

Of course you did not even attempt to explain the Lord Jesus' answer to the Apostles' question:

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power" (Acts 1:6-7).​

The Lord Jesus told them that they were not to know the "time" when it would happen. If the restoring of the kingdom to Israel is never going to happen then it would make no sense for the Lord to say anything at all about when it would happen.

Nothing in the dark crevices of your mind makes any sense.

 

[musterion]

Nothing in the dark crevices of your mind makes any sense.

Nor did it when he was here before.

 

[clefty]

Of course you did not even attempt to explain the Lord Jesus' answer to the Apostles' question:

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power" (Acts 1:6-7).​

Well I didnt think explaination was necessary as if you would read one more text further...

"8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

There did you catch it? Do you note it is the same glory old Simeon wanted to live to see?

"Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word; for mine eyes have seen thy salvation which thou hast prepared in the presence of all peoples, a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to thy people Israel."

Nothing there about building a kingdom or glory for a people their nation state...but HIM...His kingdom NOT OF THIS WORLD

The Lord Jesus told them that they were not to know the "time" when it would happen. If the restoring of the kingdom to Israel is never going to happen then it would make no sense for the Lord to say anything at all about when it would happen.

Nothing in the dark crevices of your mind makes any sense.

You are so close but missed...I never said it was not to come...the Glory is to come...no one knows when but the Father...not even the Son Who is the Glory of Israel...He doesnt know when again He comes to this world in accordance to His Father's will to do His Father's will here as it is in Heaven...

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Nothing there about building a kingdom or glory for a people their nation state...but HIM...His kingdom NOT OF THIS WORLD

Why must you pervert what the Lord Jesus actually said? He said that His kingdom is not "now" of this world.

If you would actually believe what He said here then you would actually know that when He returns He will sit upon an earthly throne:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

Now it is time for you to pervert what He said there!

 

[clefty]

Why must you pervert what the Lord Jesus actually said? He said that His kingdom is not "now" of this world.

If you would actually believe what He said here then you would actually know that when He returns He will sit upon an earthly throne:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Mt.25:31).​

Now it is time for you to pervert what He said there!

Oh good grief...what dont you understand about the new Jerusalem descending from Heaven?

His is not made by human hands...not even His throne

WHEN He comes in His GLORY the holy angels WITH Him THEN shall He sit upon His throne of glory...

The people even wept when they saw the finished second temple...WEPT...why? Because it DID NOT have the glory of the first...

And now you expect and support jesuit zionists to hobnail some contratraption and make it holy? To trigger the Almighty...BAIT Him...

It is prophecied but you are to go out of it this BABYLON...have no part...FLEE...if you are His people...love Him His ways...

It is even gaining, this idea that the Jews themselves collectively are the messiah...and you call me perverting?