Lost Comet
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We believe what we want to be. Some people apparently would like to see God sustain the unreality of error-identified personalities.
The Late Great Urantia Revelation
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We believe what we want to be. Some people apparently would like to see God sustain the unreality of error-identified personalities.
Yes, it is up to the children of God as to weather or not we want to return to unqualified parts of the absolute. to what we were before we were personified in time and space.
More elaboration:
THE FINITE GOD
117:4.1 As we view the ceaseless struggles of the creature creation for perfection of status and divinity of being, we cannot but believe that these unending efforts bespeak the unceasing struggle of the Supreme for divine self-realization. God the Supreme is the finite Deity, and he must cope with the problems of the finite in the total sense of that word. Our struggles with the vicissitudes of time in the evolutions of space are reflections of his efforts to achieve reality of self and completion of sovereignty within the sphere of action which his evolving nature is expanding to the outermost limits of possibility.
117:4.2 Throughout the grand universe the Supreme struggles for expression. His divine evolution is in measure predicated on the wisdom-action of every personality in existence. When a human being chooses eternal survival, he is cocreating destiny; and in the life of this ascending mortal the finite God finds an increased measure of personality self-realization and an enlargement of experiential sovereignty. But if a creature rejects the eternal career, that part of the Supreme which was dependent on this creature's choice experiences inescapable delay, a deprivation which must be compensated by substitutional or collateral experience; as for the personality of the nonsurvivor, it is absorbed into the oversoul of creation, becoming a part of the Deity of the Supreme.
117:4.3 God is so trusting, so loving, that he gives a portion of his divine nature into the hands of even human beings for safekeeping and self-realization. The Father nature, the Adjuster presence, is indestructible regardless of the choice of the mortal being. The child of the Supreme, the evolving self, can be destroyed notwithstanding that the potentially unifying personality of such a misguided self will persist as a factor of the Deity of Supremacy.
117:4.4 The human personality can truly destroy individuality of creaturehood, and though all that was worth while in the life of such a cosmic suicide will persist, these qualities will not persist as an individual creature. The Supreme will again find expression in the creatures of the universes but never again as that particular person; the unique personality of a nonascender returns to the Supreme as a drop of water returns to the sea.
117:4.5 Any isolated action of the personal parts of the finite is comparatively irrelevant to the eventual appearance of the Supreme Whole, but the whole is nonetheless dependent on the total acts of the manifold parts. The personality of the individual mortal is insignificant in the face of the total of Supremacy, but the personality of each human being represents an irreplaceable meaning-value in the finite; personality, having once been expressed, never again finds identical expression except in the continuing existence of that living personality.
117:4.6 And so, as we strive for self-expression, the Supreme is striving in us, and with us, for deity expression. As we find the Father, so has the Supreme again found the Paradise Creator of all things. As we master the problems of self-realization, so is the God of experience achieving almighty supremacy in the universes of time and space.
117:4.7 Mankind does not ascend effortlessly in the universe, neither does the Supreme evolve without purposeful and intelligent action. Creatures do not attain perfection by mere passivity, nor can the spirit of Supremacy factualize the power of the Almighty without unceasing service ministry to the finite creation.
117:4.8 The temporal relation of man to the Supreme is the foundation for cosmic morality, the universal sensitivity to, and acceptance of, duty. This is a morality which transcends the temporal sense of relative right and wrong; it is a morality directly predicated on the self-conscious creature's appreciation of experiential obligation to experiential Deity. Mortal man and all other finite creatures are created out of the living potential of energy mind, and spirit existent in the Supreme. It is upon the Supreme that the Adjuster-mortal ascender draws for the creation of the immortal and divine character of a finaliter. It is out of the very reality of the Supreme that the Adjuster, with the consent of the human will, weaves the patterns of the eternal nature of an ascending son of God.
117:4.9 The evolution of Adjuster progress in the spiritualizing and eternalizing of a human personality is directly productive of an enlargement of the sovereignty of the Supreme. Such achievements in human evolution are at the same time achievements in the evolutionary actualization of the Supreme. While it is true that creatures could not evolve without the Supreme, it is probably also true that the evolution of the Supreme can never be fully attained independent of the completed evolution of all creatures. Herein lies the great cosmic responsibility of self-conscious personalities: That Supreme Deity is in a certain sense dependent on the choosing of the mortal will. And the mutual progression of creature evolution and of Supreme evolution is faithfully and fully indicated to the Ancients of Days over the inscrutable mechanisms of universe reflectivity.
117:4.10 The great challenge that has been given to mortal man is this: Will you decide to personalize the experiencible value meanings of the cosmos into your own evolving selfhood? or by rejecting survival, will you allow these secrets of Supremacy to lie dormant, awaiting the action of another creature at some other time who will in his way attempt a creature contribution to the evolution of the finite God? But that will be his contribution to the Supreme, not yours.
117:4.11 The great struggle of this universe age is between the potential and the actual—the seeking for actualization by all that is as yet unexpressed. If mortal man proceeds upon the Paradise adventure, he is following the motions of time, which flow as currents within the stream of eternity; if mortal man rejects the eternal career, he is moving counter to the stream of events in the finite universes. The mechanical creation moves on inexorably in accordance with the unfolding purpose of the Paradise Father, but the volitional creation has the choice of accepting or of rejecting the role of personality participation in the adventure of eternity. Mortal man cannot destroy the supreme values of human existence, but he can very definitely prevent the evolution of these values in his own personal experience. To the extent that the human self thus refuses to take part in the Paradise ascent, to just that extent is the Supreme delayed in achieving divinity expression in the grand universe.
117:4.12 Into the keeping of mortal man has been given not only the Adjuster presence of the Paradise Father but also control over the destiny of an infinitesimal fraction of the future of the Supreme. For as man attains human destiny, so does the Supreme achieve destiny on deity levels.
117:4.13 And so the decision awaits each of you as it once awaited each of us: Will you fail the God of time, who is so dependent upon the decisions of the finite mind? will you fail the Supreme personality of the universes by the slothfulness of animalistic retrogression? will you fail the great brother of all creatures, who is so dependent on each creature? can you allow yourself to pass into the realm of the unrealized when before you lies the enchanting vista of the universe career—the divine discovery of the Paradise Father and the divine participation in the search for, and the evolution of, the God of Supremacy?
117:4.14 God's gifts—his bestowal of reality—are not divorcements from himself; he does not alienate creation from himself, but he has set up tensions in the creations circling Paradise. God first loves man and confers upon him the potential of immortality—eternal reality. And as man loves God, so does man become eternal in actuality. And here is mystery: The more closely man approaches God through love, the greater the reality—actuality—of that man. The more man withdraws from God, the more nearly he approaches nonreality—cessation of existence. When man consecrates his will to the doing of the Father's will, when man gives God all that he has, then does God make that man more than he is.
Damian
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I thought you had a problem with the idea of "unreality."
Damian
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Is the UB polytheistic? How many "gods" are there? What is the Paradise Father? What is the relation of the Finite God to the Paradise Father? How many Finite Gods are there?
Lost Comet
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Damian
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It would appear that UB posits some kind of spectrum...
Unreality <----------------------------------------------> Reality
Where exactly do your "seven dimensions" play into this? And where exactly do we fall onto the "reality/unreality" spectrum?
There is only one God. But what is God?
The "Forward" to the UB establishes a foundation of what these terms mean. It represents a never before revealed understanding of the trinity relationships and the 7 different levels of reality in which "God" functions.
http://www.truthbook.com/index.cfm?linkID=1000#U0_0_0
Caino
Damian
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What are the seven different levels of reality? Speak to me. Don't provide links, and don't cut and paste large sections of the book (more than a verse or two is all you should reasonably expect anyone to read here).
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
annihilation or eternal life......
annihilation or eternal life......
The issue of 'annihilation', or we could call it 'soul-destruction' (the soul being dis-integrated) is a subtly fascinating subject, which the Papers provide a fairly detailed explanation,...however even with this information,....we are left to speculate certain aspects of the process. If souls can be de-structed or expunged from an integrated conscious existence,...the UB provides probably the best explanation concerning such, in the greater context of the unfolding of the cosmos, and immortality-potential of souls, who having freedom of choice, may also forfeit their potential of survival, experiencing a final death. This would be the logical result of a whole-hearted embrace of sin and identification with iniquity, to such a degree that eternal death (being expunged from existence) is the natural consequence. Such entails a deeper research into the metaphysics involved here, relative to the complexity of parts that make up a 'living soul' and enables it to survive, and what factors would nullify such a survival.
Following more along the lines of traditional Spiritualism and Sanatana Dharma(Hinduism), we usually hold the soul to be more or less 'eternal', so that there is never a total annihilation of conscious existence, but progress or devolution according to one's karma, or an eventual triumph of divine will and Love...for all sentient beings, who will fulfill their purpose of existence....eventually/ultimately.
pj
annihilation or eternal life......
The issue of 'annihilation', or we could call it 'soul-destruction' (the soul being dis-integrated) is a subtly fascinating subject, which the Papers provide a fairly detailed explanation,...however even with this information,....we are left to speculate certain aspects of the process. If souls can be de-structed or expunged from an integrated conscious existence,...the UB provides probably the best explanation concerning such, in the greater context of the unfolding of the cosmos, and immortality-potential of souls, who having freedom of choice, may also forfeit their potential of survival, experiencing a final death. This would be the logical result of a whole-hearted embrace of sin and identification with iniquity, to such a degree that eternal death (being expunged from existence) is the natural consequence. Such entails a deeper research into the metaphysics involved here, relative to the complexity of parts that make up a 'living soul' and enables it to survive, and what factors would nullify such a survival.
Following more along the lines of traditional Spiritualism and Sanatana Dharma(Hinduism), we usually hold the soul to be more or less 'eternal', so that there is never a total annihilation of conscious existence, but progress or devolution according to one's karma, or an eventual triumph of divine will and Love...for all sentient beings, who will fulfill their purpose of existence....eventually/ultimately.
pj
Damian
New member
I reject this doctrine. I subscribe to universalism.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
cool,...I'm a universalist at heart. However, as I shared...there is an interesting complexity to the composition of the soul shared in the Papers, which makes 'soul-death' almost a coherent logical conclusion....if indeed such is the case...that a soul can actually 'die'. Then we'd have to delve into the subject of 'death' and what that entails.In any case,...as long as we are conscious beings alive in the love of God,....sustained by the divine will, inspired by the Spirit, having the life of God,....we carry on....in divine providence.
pj
Damian
New member
This is not a trivial issue. Why do you believe this doctrine is logically compelling?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
soul survival..............
soul survival..............
I speak from a revelational-context of what the Papers teach, knowing the complexity of the soul and and how survivability is sustained by the souls union with the divine adjuster (Thought Adjuster), and how that some souls may choose not to survive (maximize their full potential and become 'immortal'), thus choosing 'death' (soul-disintegration). You'd need to have a knowledge of the teaching-premise/context/details to understand my point. (true, its far from trivial, but a matter of survival).
pj
soul survival..............
I speak from a revelational-context of what the Papers teach, knowing the complexity of the soul and and how survivability is sustained by the souls union with the divine adjuster (Thought Adjuster), and how that some souls may choose not to survive (maximize their full potential and become 'immortal'), thus choosing 'death' (soul-disintegration). You'd need to have a knowledge of the teaching-premise/context/details to understand my point. (true, its far from trivial, but a matter of survival).
pj
Damian
New member
Does the UB teach determinism?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
It does champion the grant of 'freedom of choice' as something near sovereign, as far as the individual soul is concerned. If a soul can choose a final and eternal death...and it is God's will that a soul choose life, then obviously....'free will' in this case is afforded, and its consequences. Other UB readers are free to chime in
pj
Damian
New member
It does champion the grant of 'freedom of choice' as something near sovereign, as far as the individual soul is concerned. If a soul can choose a final and eternal death...and it is God's will that a soul choose life, then obviously....'free will' in this case is afforded, and its consequences. Other UB readers are free to chime in
Does God have free will?
Lost Comet
New member
It helps to understand what the UB means by "soul." That was already covered and will do so again, but this time beginning with the basics using my own words. (Please bear with me. I know it's a crude representation of what the UB actually says)
The "Seven Levels" or phases of Totality consist of:
1 Original -- the infinite I AM;
3 Actuals -- Absolute Spirit-Person (the Original Son), Absolute Thing (Paradise), and the Great Coordinator -- the Holy Spirit or God of Mind.
3 Potentials of infinity -- Deity Potential (yang), Non-deity and static-reactive potential (yin), and a coordinate force that resolves the tension between them (Tao).
We are creatures that come out of the world (matter-potential) as the result Divine action. At some point in our evolution, there is a "tipping-point" where we become responsive to spirit, and Spirit, an actual fragment of God, comes to dwell in our minds. (If you recall, I said we come out of the world in part, and in part come in to the world.) There is no "fall" or "forgetting" or "separation"; just gradations of One Reality and multiple co-ordinate Absolutes (see note below*). The union of Spirit and creature-mind creates a new and different entity: a living soul.
The creature-mind is the captain and the Father-fragment is the pilot. The captain is in charge, and if he is wise, he will allow the pilot to steer.
We begin on the extreme left side of the spectrum and we can go in either one of two directions:
Unreality <-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------> Absolute Reality
But the captain is not always wise and his ship can run aground. The personality's dissolution by no means entails the dissolution of God (the indwelling spirit), as that is indeed impossible. But material creatures are contingent creatures of potentiality. Though extremely unlikely, it is possible for the creature to "uncreate" himself.
*NOTE: I still like the analogy of God being the Light on the other side of the cosmic prism and that we live, move, and have our being in the spectrum of his Being.
[Off-topic side note: The UB's description of the three Persons of Deity is strikingly similar to Sri Aurobindo's, almost too similar to be mere coincidence IMO.]
The "Seven Levels" or phases of Totality consist of:
1 Original -- the infinite I AM;
3 Actuals -- Absolute Spirit-Person (the Original Son), Absolute Thing (Paradise), and the Great Coordinator -- the Holy Spirit or God of Mind.
3 Potentials of infinity -- Deity Potential (yang), Non-deity and static-reactive potential (yin), and a coordinate force that resolves the tension between them (Tao).
We are creatures that come out of the world (matter-potential) as the result Divine action. At some point in our evolution, there is a "tipping-point" where we become responsive to spirit, and Spirit, an actual fragment of God, comes to dwell in our minds. (If you recall, I said we come out of the world in part, and in part come in to the world.) There is no "fall" or "forgetting" or "separation"; just gradations of One Reality and multiple co-ordinate Absolutes (see note below*). The union of Spirit and creature-mind creates a new and different entity: a living soul.
The creature-mind is the captain and the Father-fragment is the pilot. The captain is in charge, and if he is wise, he will allow the pilot to steer.
We begin on the extreme left side of the spectrum and we can go in either one of two directions:
Unreality <-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------> Absolute Reality
But the captain is not always wise and his ship can run aground. The personality's dissolution by no means entails the dissolution of God (the indwelling spirit), as that is indeed impossible. But material creatures are contingent creatures of potentiality. Though extremely unlikely, it is possible for the creature to "uncreate" himself.
*NOTE: I still like the analogy of God being the Light on the other side of the cosmic prism and that we live, move, and have our being in the spectrum of his Being.
[Off-topic side note: The UB's description of the three Persons of Deity is strikingly similar to Sri Aurobindo's, almost too similar to be mere coincidence IMO.]
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Damion, the concepts of the UB are much more complex then something that can be simplified in a one liner. If you are to mentally lazy to read more then one or two paragraphs then don't ask such big questions. You need to be willing to expend mental energy if you want to research these subjects. It will require at least the same effort you put into ACIM.
I post larger sections of the book lest I risk misrepresenting one single word, which, in the case of the UB can be vitally important.
For the record, I read the entire chapter on "Illusions" from ACIM in order to get the context of the one small quote you provided on salvation.
I still recommend that you read the entire forward to get a well rounded foundation.
DEITY AND DIVINITY
0:1.1 The universe of universes presents phenomena of deity activities on diverse levels of cosmic realities, mind meanings, and spirit values, but all of these ministrations—personal or otherwise—are divinely co-ordinated.
0:1.2 DEITY is personalizable as God, is prepersonal and superpersonal in ways not altogether comprehensible by man. Deity is characterized by the quality of unity—actual or potential—on all supermaterial levels of reality; and this unifying quality is best comprehended by creatures as divinity.
0:1.3 Deity functions on personal, prepersonal, and superpersonal levels. Total Deity is functional on the following seven levels:
0:1.4 1. Static—self-contained and self-existent Deity.
0:1.5 2. Potential—self-willed and self-purposive Deity.
0:1.6 3. Associative—self-personalized and divinely fraternal Deity.
0:1.7 4. Creative—self-distributive and divinely revealed Deity.
0:1.8 5. Evolutional—self-expansive and creature-identified Deity.
0:1.9 6. Supreme—self-experiential and creature-Creator-unifying Deity. Deity functioning on the first creature-identificational level as time-space overcontrollers of the grand universe, sometimes designated the Supremacy of Deity.
0:1.10 7. Ultimate—self-projected and time-space-transcending Deity. Deity omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Deity functioning on the second level of unifying divinity expression as effective overcontrollers and absonite upholders of the master universe. As compared with the ministry of the Deities to the grand universe, this absonite function in the master universe is tantamount to universal overcontrol and supersustenance, sometimes called the Ultimacy of Deity.
0:1.11 The finite level of reality is characterized by creature life and time-space limitations. Finite realities may not have endings, but they always have beginnings—they are created. The Deity level of Supremacy may be conceived as a function in relation to finite existences.
0:1.12 The absonite level of reality is characterized by things and beings without beginnings or endings and by the transcendence of time and space. Absoniters are not created; they are eventuated—they simply are. The Deity level of Ultimacy connotes a function in relation to absonite realities. No matter in what part of the master universe, whenever time and space are transcended, such an absonite phenomenon is an act of the Ultimacy of Deity.
0:1.13 The absolute level is beginningless, endless, timeless, and spaceless. For example: On Paradise, time and space are nonexistent; the time-space status of Paradise is absolute. This level is Trinity attained, existentially, by the Paradise Deities, but this third level of unifying Deity expression is not fully unified experientially. Whenever, wherever, and however the absolute level of Deity functions, Paradise-absolute values and meanings are manifest.
0:1.14 Deity may be existential, as in the Eternal Son; experiential, as in the Supreme Being; associative, as in God the Sevenfold; undivided, as in the Paradise Trinity.
0:1.15 Deity is the source of all that which is divine. Deity is characteristically and invariably divine, but all that which is divine is not necessarily Deity, though it will be co-ordinated with Deity and will tend towards some phase of unity with Deity—spiritual, mindal, or personal.
0:1.16 DIVINITY is the characteristic, unifying, and co-ordinating quality of Deity.
0:1.17 Divinity is creature comprehensible as truth, beauty, and goodness; correlated in personality as love, mercy, and ministry; disclosed on impersonal levels as justice, power, and sovereignty.
0:1.18 Divinity may be perfect—complete—as on existential and creator levels of Paradise perfection; it may be imperfect, as on experiential and creature levels of time-space evolution, or it may be relative, neither perfect nor imperfect, as on certain Havona levels of existential-experiential relationships.
0:1.19 When we attempt to conceive of perfection in all phases and forms of relativity, we encounter seven conceivable types:
1. Absolute perfection in all aspects .
2. Absolute perfection in some phases and relative perfection in all other aspects.
3. Absolute, relative, and imperfect aspects in varied association.
4. Absolute perfection in some respects, imperfection in all others.
5. Absolute perfection in no direction, relative perfection in all manifestations.
6. Absolute perfection in no phase, relative in some, imperfect in others.
7. Absolute perfection in no attribute, imperfection in all.
Caino
Damian
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What do the terms "unreality" and "reality" mean in the context of the UB?
Lost Comet
New member
First, you should understand two things. First, to me, the UB is not the all and end all; second, the answers are my own as per your request.
In the context of the UB, "reality" is a relative term; the REAL sustains the relatively unreal. ACIM is a relatively dualistic either/or -- either something is real or it is not; there is no middle.
As I stated before, we believe what we want to be. I believe reason trumps idealism because I want it to be so. That we can know God directly, without the intervention of ideas, does not change that. Tools should be adequate to the task. Many "isms" are the result of unprepared minds encountering the Divine.
Our highest and most profound beliefs or wants can never be more than relative to that what IS. They can never be more than approximations. They prepare us for an encounter our true Self -- THAT which is in all things -- so we won't be overwhelmed by it. They prepare our minds for an ineffable encounter with the REAL, the I AM.
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