The Late Great Urantia Revelation

[Lost Comet]

The mere fact that everything I've read in Urantia plagiarizes Scripture or contradicts it tells me it's source; and it is NOT from above.

Then let's do as you suggest: reason together. Let's discuss the teachings. What is said in the suggested papers that you disagree with?

 

[freelight]

Reasoning......

Reasoning......

Then why is it you never make the highest use of it?

Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Remember we covered the papers commentary on "the forgiveness of sin", as it defines 'sin' here.

More importantly, you will note that the above passage is about the effect of repentance. This is important to see. Read the entire 1st chapter of Isaiah in 'context'.

The principle of reason still stands as the papers herald it, and would agree that 'repentance' is an acceptable way of 'atonement' because it restores 'loyalty-relations' with 'God', it is a re-turning to truth, righteousness, goodness.

There is nothing about 'blood-atonement' here, in fact in verses 10-15...'God' is sickened with all their blood-sacrifices, offerings, religious rituals, feasts, Sabbaths, new moons. These offerings became worthless because there was no true righteousness or repentance accompanying these gestures. It was in vain.

Furthermore, HOW were these ones to have their sins be made white as snow? See Isaiah 1:16-17, .....then in verse 19 "If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land". There is no call to prepare a blood sacrifice or religious meeting to make one clean here, but the actual doing of righteousness! There is also not taught here some prospect of a God-Man coming centuries in the future to be a blood-sacrifice for sins.

Lets be 'reasonable'.



pj

 

[Aimiel]

There is nothing about 'blood-atonement' here, in fact in verses 10-15...'God' is sickened with all their blood-sacrifices, offerings, religious rituals, feasts, Sabbaths, new moons. These offerings became worthless because there was no true righteousness or repentance accompanying these gestures. It was in vain. Furthermore, HOW were these ones to have their sins be made white as snow? See Isaiah 1:16-17, .....then in verse 19 "If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land". There is no call to prepare a blood sacrifice or religious meeting to make one clean here, but the actual doing of righteousness! There is also not taught here some prospect of a God-Man coming centuries in the future to be a blood-sacrifice for sins.

Lets be 'reasonable'.

There is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood.

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

The remittance of sins takes place when we apply His Blood to our life. Without His Righteousness no one is clean. All your 'works' are merely filthy rags.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

God's Righteousness is clean. With His Blood we are made righteous, even though no one is such on their own merits.

 

[Aimiel]

Then let's do as you suggest: reason together. Let's discuss the teachings. What is said in the suggested papers that you disagree with?

Everything, since it is entirely lies and deception.

 

[Charity]

There is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood.

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

The remittance of sins takes place when we apply His Blood to our life. Without His Righteousness no one is clean. All your 'works' are merely filthy rags.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

God's Righteousness is clean. With His Blood we are made righteous, even though no one is such on their own merits.

they did you a Hugh Favor, the filthy unclean Killers, that didn't agree with Him. The spitters, the beaters up of Jesus suggest that you! as them, filthy lot, can use the crime scene blood to Market the forgiveness of sin, Making everyone guilty in the Name of one. according to the Laws that had Jesus put to death.

 

[freelight]

you're clueless......

you're clueless......

Everything, since it is entirely lies and deception.

Continuing your ignorance does not help your case or claims at all. We've been very charitable in giving you ample resources and material (besides the actual papers themselves) so there is no exuse to remain uneducated.



pj

 

[freelight]

leaving the bloodshed behind.......

leaving the bloodshed behind.......

There is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood.

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

The remittance of sins takes place when we apply His Blood to our life. Without His Righteousness no one is clean. All your 'works' are merely filthy rags.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

God's Righteousness is clean. With His Blood we are made righteous, even though no one is such on their own merits.

My former post stands,....for the 'LORD' was instructing them to wash themselves of their form former evil, and return to right doing. This 'repentance' was the way.....NOT a blood-sacrifice or religious ritual or even the muttering of prayers. God was calling their hearts back to him in humility, obedience to true principles, justice, mercy, right treatment of others.

Obsession on the 'blood of Jesus' is unnecessary, and it still holds that there were ways of 'atonement' in the OT without the necessity of blood. The call to repentance is still essential, and blood-sacrifices are not even 'binding', 'required' or 'necessary' since no Jewish Temple exists (looking back to the roots of sacrifice).

I have no problem with the symbolic token of Jesus blood understood esoterically as it relates to a mechanism or concept of 'atonement', but we must be careful how this is 'interpreted' and 'applied'. It serves 'symbolically', and still if you believe the blood of Jesus somehow has magical powers, thats a matter of 'faith'. Its 'seeming' power or efficacy is a matter of 'belief'. - it is 'subjective' ('figurative' within a certain context).

This world is called the world of the cross, because of the unfortunate suffering Jesus had to endure on the 'cross', but this has no connection with any power of a 'blood-atonement' according to the revelators. Jesus gospel of the kingdom focuses on the Fatherhood of God and Brotherhood of Man,....the spiritualizing of man in fellowship with God and service to humanity. That's the key. The revelators draw out the greater cosmological backdrop and context in which souls progress onward towards 'God', thru the various worlds and stages of perfection (Life is a progressive evolution, unfolding of continuous creation). These are but concept frames, symbols, language-tools that help relate the message, so human terms, meanings, word-values have to be used, with new terms, meanings added as are appropriate.



pj

 

[Lost Comet]

Everything, since it is entirely lies and deception.

Okay. Since it is clear that you you do not want to "reason together," let's discuss one of the few of the things you have been willing to talk about.

There is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood.

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

The remittance of sins takes place when we apply His Blood to our life. Without His Righteousness no one is clean. All your 'works' are merely filthy rags.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

God's Righteousness is clean. With His Blood we are made righteous, even though no one is such on their own merits.

There is no question that we all fall short of God's glory. But right or wrong, true or false, the need for sacrifice in order to be forgiven does not appeal to people today. Yet, we still need for God notwithstanding what the "new atheists" say.

My question is this: how can you be fishers of men if the fish have evolved to avoid the old nets?

 

[freelight]

Omnipresent Love......

Omnipresent Love......

they did you a Hugh Favor, the filthy unclean Killers, that didn't agree with Him. The spitters, the beaters up of Jesus suggest that you! as them, filthy lot, can use the crime scene blood to Market the forgiveness of sin, Making everyone guilty in the Name of one. according to the Laws that had Jesus put to death.

I think the parable of the penitent tax collector says it all, who unlike the Pharisee who boasted in his self-righteous comparing himself to other men, would not so much lift his eyes to heaven, but pleaded with God to be merciful to him, a sinner. Luke 18:9-14. That soul received forgiveness (went home justified) while the Pharisee was puffed up in his own ego and 'image' of self-righteousness (deluded more rather).

We note from this story that all that was needed to facilitate forgiveness was sincere prayer and supplication to God, for the Father-God knows our heart and what we have need of, even before we ask. Access to the omnipresence of 'God' is universal, immediate and ever-availing.


pj

 

[Aimiel]

they did you a Hugh Favor, the filthy unclean Killers, that didn't agree with Him. The spitters, the beaters up of Jesus suggest that you! as them, filthy lot, can use the crime scene blood to Market the forgiveness of sin, Making everyone guilty in the Name of one. according to the Laws that had Jesus put to death.

This is not only incomprehensible, but it's a serious indictment against the United States of America's educational system and especially the National Education Association. :duh:

 

[Aimiel]

Continuing your ignorance does not help your case or claims at all. We've been very charitable in giving you ample resources and material (besides the actual papers themselves) so there is no exuse to remain uneducated.

You also are without excuse.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

You have all you will ever see of God, already, and you've rejected Him at every turn. Turn back to Him and He will save you. Ignore His warnings and you will proceed into death and judgment.

 

[Aimiel]

My former post stands,....for the 'LORD' was instructing them to wash themselves of their form former evil, and return to right doing. This 'repentance' was the way.....NOT a blood-sacrifice or religious ritual or even the muttering of prayers. God was calling their hearts back to him in humility, obedience to true principles, justice, mercy, right treatment of others.

My former posts stand on The Word of God, so they have a firm foundation. Yours are built upon sand. If Jesus' Blood is not designed to remit sins then you're making Him out to be a liar.

Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Not only that, but you are stomping on Him and counting His Blood an un-holy thing:

Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace

That is showing hatred of the very Spirit of Grace with which God has chosen to sanctify men unto Himself. You are very close to falling into hell itself when you do that.

Obsession on the 'blood of Jesus' is unnecessary, and it still holds that there were ways of 'atonement' in the OT without the necessity of blood. The call to repentance is still essential, and blood-sacrifices are not even 'binding', 'required' or 'necessary' since no Jewish Temple exists (looking back to the roots of sacrifice).

Without His Blood there is no cleanliness from sin. You're lost and without hope altogether.

I have no problem with the symbolic token of Jesus blood understood esoterically as it relates to a mechanism or concept of 'atonement', but we must be careful how this is 'interpreted' and 'applied'. It serves 'symbolically', and still if you believe the blood of Jesus somehow has magical powers, thats a matter of 'faith'. Its 'seeming' power or efficacy is a matter of 'belief'. - it is 'subjective' ('figurative' within a certain context).

Either you believe that His Blood washes away sin or you don't. There is no fence.

This world is called the world of the cross, because of the unfortunate suffering Jesus had to endure on the 'cross', but this has no connection with any power of a 'blood-atonement' according to the revelators. Jesus gospel of the kingdom focuses on the Fatherhood of God and Brotherhood of Man,....the spiritualizing of man in fellowship with God and service to humanity. That's the key. The revelators draw out the greater cosmological backdrop and context in which souls progress onward towards 'God', thru the various worlds and stages of perfection (Life is a progressive evolution, unfolding of continuous creation). These are but concept frames, symbols, language-tools that help relate the message, so human terms, meanings, word-values have to be used, with new terms, meanings added as are appropriate.

You're merely avoiding the issue at stake: His Blood is what gives us a clean slate. Without His sacrifice there could be no Kingdom. It would be empty. Only God and the angels who were not deceived in the fall. You are following the ones who were deceived and trying to deceive others into believing there is no punishment for sin. The wages of sin is death and after this the judgment. Without applying The Blood of Jesus to your sin you will be judged. No two ways about it.

 

[Aimiel]

There is no question that we all fall short of God's glory. But right or wrong, true or false, the need for sacrifice in order to be forgiven does not appeal to people today. Yet, we still need for God notwithstanding what the "new atheists" say.

It isn't designed to be appealing. It's designed to wash away sin. Without conscience, one cannot repent. Without repentance, one cannot come to God. Without Jesus' Blood one cannot be saved.

My question is this: how can you be fishers of men if the fish have evolved to avoid the old nets?

Throw some spiritual dynamite into the water.

 

[Charity]

This is not only incomprehensible, but it's a serious indictment against the United States of America's educational system and especially the National Education Association. :duh:

So, my incompressible comment is understood as offensive to national education?
That's comprehsable to me, for love i may have insulted the theologians, who are paid!

The life of Jesus an his destruction are important are the actions of the Roman Empire! Up to you if you desire to eat the last supper Their table.

 

[Lost Comet]

It isn't designed to be appealing. It's designed to wash away sin. Without conscience, one cannot repent. Without repentance, one cannot come to God. Without Jesus' Blood one cannot be saved.

What if they passed a law and nobody obeyed?

Throw some spiritual dynamite into the water.

If you do that, more fish will die and sink to the bottom than rise to the surface. Not only is that not appealing, but it is unconscionable. I think most people today see in that a good reason to not believe in God. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, but trying to get you to see the bigger picture.

 

[Aimiel]

What if they passed a law and nobody obeyed?

If you do that, more fish will die and sink to the bottom than rise to the surface. Not only is that not appealing, but it is unconscionable. I think most people today see in that a good reason to not believe in God. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, but trying to get you to see the bigger picture.

God knows that men will sin, with or without the law. The law was given to show men that they're sinful. He wouldn't worry about sin if it were harmless. All God wants is our good. I see the big picture and it's very sinful. God wants men to be holy but men want to satisfy their flesh. The destruction of the World Trade Center towers was designed to blow Americans out of the water with fear. All it did was cause sons to turn to their fathers and fathers to turn to their sons, since God works ALL things together for good to those who are called according to His Purposes. He didn't design the attack but He did allow it since it was needful. He doesn't want men to have no hope but to have eternal hope, which is why He provided for men to repent and receive eternal life in exchange for their faith in His Son.

 

[Lost Comet]

God knows that men will sin, with or without the law.

I agree.

The law was given to show men that they're sinful.

The "law," as you put it, is a guide on how to live in such a way that it benefits us, not God.

He wouldn't worry about sin if it were harmless.

It's not harmless to us, but I don't think God worries about it. Why should he even acknowledge its existence? God is above all that.

All God wants is our good.

Agreed.

I see the big picture and it's very sinful. God wants men to be holy but men want to satisfy their flesh.

Agreed.

The destruction of the World Trade Center towers was designed to blow Americans out of the water with fear.

Could it be that they saw the attacks as a way to protect their values and way of life?

All it did was cause sons to turn to their fathers and fathers to turn to their sons, since God works ALL things together for good to those who are called according to His Purposes. He didn't design the attack but He did allow it since it was needful.

I don't see how the attacks were "needful." Inevitable, perhaps, but not needful.

He doesn't want men to have no hope but to have eternal hope,

Agreed.

which is why He provided for men to repent and receive eternal life in exchange for their faith in His Son.

The blood of an innocent man being put to death so they might be forgiven is too high a price to pay for most people today. I call that progress, an advance in human values.

 

[freelight]

redefining 'atonement'......

redefining 'atonement'......

My former posts stand on The Word of God, so they have a firm foundation. Yours are built upon sand. If Jesus' Blood is not designed to remit sins then you're making Him out to be a liar.

Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Not only that, but you are stomping on Him and counting His Blood an un-holy thing:

Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace

That is showing hatred of the very Spirit of Grace with which God has chosen to sanctify men unto Himself. You are very close to falling into hell itself when you do that.Without His Blood there is no cleanliness from sin. You're lost and without hope altogether.Either you believe that His Blood washes away sin or you don't. There is no fence.You're merely avoiding the issue at stake: His Blood is what gives us a clean slate. Without His sacrifice there could be no Kingdom. It would be empty. Only God and the angels who were not deceived in the fall. You are following the ones who were deceived and trying to deceive others into believing there is no punishment for sin. The wages of sin is death and after this the judgment. Without applying The Blood of Jesus to your sin you will be judged. No two ways about it.

The Papers definition of 'sin' and the universal concept of atonement-methods without blood still holds, shared earlier. I've never considered the blood of Jesus as something 'unholy', and as a mystic have respected its 'holiness' and 'power' in an esoteric understanding of its mystery (this may include aspects of traditional concepts of the symbolism, and more 'occult' and 'speculative' ones). This goes without saying for those who know my teaching. I've also had a classic thread "Atonement without blood" upon this very subject, so know whereof I speak. The OT is a good example of a system who did at one time use blood sacrifices, but also continues in their religious life without such 'rituals', enjoying 'at-one-ment' with 'God' via prayer, repentance, obedience to divine principles, service to others, right doing, etc. Remember,...it is the DOING of God's will that avails,.....actually obeying and following divine laws and principles, abiding in harmony with God and his laws....that is the dynamic and continuum of LIFE.

The narrow assumption above and interpretation from a NT perspective, particularly from the angle of Paul's gospel, focuses on Jesus blood as the main 'agent' in redeeming the soul, but such remains 'figurative, metaphoric, symbolic' anyways, no matter how its 'applied'. Its a matter of 'faith' about how Jesus blood saves a soul, given any number of 'explanations' relative to 'atonement'. One could argue the blood of Jesus has no magical properties or is not a physical substance but that it still has some spiritual power made efficacious by faith. Still,...its a matter of faith in that 'blood', to cause some kind of effect. Nevertheless...one still has to repent, do God's will and change his life aligning himself with God and his laws (the law of the Spirit of Life) to enjoy the fruit of such fellowship and communion. If a mere belief in Jesus blood does not effect such a transformation, we would have to look again at the doctrine. Also how much subjective 'proof' would be needed to confirm the power of the blood, or if any failure was due to a weakness in faith or that the concept of 'blood-atonement' itself is insufficient to effect a transformation?

The 'blood' is the life-soul of the Master who gives his life for the sheep as a demonstration of love, it is the living wine, the renewing spirit of life, the fruit of the vine. It does not have to connote or refer to a vicarious blood-atonement, but the sharing of spiritual life. In this sense it is a 'sacrament'.

In any case,...I mentioned early that the revelators of this epochal work, call our planet Urantia, the 'world of the cross' because Jesus, our Creator Son, also called 'Christ-Michael' (because he is of the order of Michael, who are Creator-Sons) suffered such an ordeal on this planet during his bestowal(incarnation) on this planet. Below we learn more from the papers -

~*~*~

20:6.6 When the bestowal Sons, Creator or Magisterial, enter the portals of death, they reappear on the third day. But you should not entertain the idea that they always meet with the tragic end encountered by the Creator Son who sojourned on your world nineteen hundred years ago. The extraordinary and unusually cruel experience through which Jesus of Nazareth passed has caused Urantia to become locally known as “the world of the cross.” It is not necessary that such inhuman treatment be accorded a Son of God, and the vast majority of planets have afforded them a more considerate reception, allowing them to finish their mortal careers, terminate the age, adjudicate the sleeping survivors, and inaugurate a new dispensation, without imposing a violent death. A bestowal Son must encounter death, must pass through the whole of the actual experience of mortals of the realms, but it is not a requirement of the divine plan that this death be either violent or unusual.

119:8.8 Urantia is the sentimental shrine of all Nebadon, the chief of ten million inhabited worlds, the mortal home of Christ Michael, sovereign of all Nebadon, a Melchizedek minister to the realms, a system savior, an Adamic redeemer, a seraphic fellow, an associate of ascending spirits, a morontia progressor, a Son of Man in the likeness of mortal flesh, and the Planetary Prince of Urantia. And your record tells the truth when it says that this same Jesus has promised sometime to return to the world of his terminal bestowal, the World of the Cross.

188:4.1 Although Jesus did not die this death on the cross to atone for the racial guilt of mortal man nor to provide some sort of effective approach to an otherwise offended and unforgiving God; even though the Son of Man did not offer himself as a sacrifice to appease the wrath of God and to open the way for sinful man to obtain salvation; notwithstanding that these ideas of atonement and propitiation are erroneous, nonetheless, there are significances attached to this death of Jesus on the cross which should not be overlooked. It is a fact that Urantia has become known among other neighboring inhabited planets as the “World of the Cross.”


More on the meaning of the cross, to come........



pj

 

[Caino]

Here's my question:

Why would anyone believe this garbage? Don't you new-agers know how to think for yourself and use your reason?

That's what the Jews said about Jesus, because Jesus was new age, liberal and open minded. But eventually the Pagans in Rome merged with Peter and Paul's version of the gospel and Christianity was born. Acceptance of revelation such as the UB take time to reach a larger audience. The UB will replace the Bible in the future in perhaps 500 or 1,000 years.

As a child I knew the OT stories were not true, Noah's flood nonsense and the young earth stuff. The human sacrifice doctrines of the Pagans in Rome contaminated the Christian message. But I never had a problem with Jesus, faith in him was natural to me.


Caino

 

[Caino]

There is no sin apart from deliberate disloyalty to deity.


Caino