The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[Evangelion]

OK, let's see if that works. "We are baptised into his death."

Hmmm. No mention of the Holy Spirit, I see... Better not "add to God's Word", right boys?

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
OK, let's see if that works. "We are baptised into his death."

Hmmm. No mention of the Holy Spirit, I see... Better not "add to God's Word", right boys?

Yes Evangelion, better not to "add to" God's Word and better not to "detract from" God's Word too!

First of all, we know that the baptism in Romans 6 is talking about spirit baptism because Jesus Christ says so. Acts 1:5: "For John truly baptized with water BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE "HOLY GHOST" NOT MANY DAYS HENCE."

Jesus Christ makes it very clear that baptism with the holy spirit is to replace the water baptism of John.

John himself makes it very clear that baptism with the holy spirit is where it's at. Mark 1:8:

I indeed have baptized you with water: BUT "HE" SHALL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY GHOST."

Secondly, water baptism cannot get one baptized INTO Christ. Also, when John baptized with water, Jesus Christ had not yet died for our sins and therefore there was no water baptism "into" his death. Water baptism was only "symbolic"...a type....till the greater baptism with the "HOLY SPIRIT" by Christ became available.

Sheesh...Evangelion it's all written there in black and white...are you that blind that you cannot see what is written...what is "thus saith the Lord?" Why do you want to "detract from" Acts 1:5 "BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST...."?

After Christ died, was buried, raised from dead and ascended to his Father, "BUT ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost" became available on the day of Pentecost.

To be baptized INTO his death is to be "baptized with the holy spirit"...BECAUSE JESUS SAID SO!

Also, it is obvious that Chapter 6 is a continuation from Chapter 5.

Chapter 5 is referring to God giving us His "Holy Spirit."

Romans 5:5-
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Now you show me, Evangelion, where does it mention "WATER?" Not only in chapter 6, but in the whole book of Romans??

 

[Evangelion]

OK, well that was a complete waste of your time and mine.

Care to address the typology? Oh no, that's right - you already said you didn't want to.

Never mind.

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
OK, well that was a complete waste of your time and mine. Care to address the typology? Oh no, that's right - you already said you didn't want to. Never mind.

Great way to respond to my post, Evangelion. Always running away. Why can't you respond to what I presented instead of making up such lame excuses as not to? hmmmmm?

I did address your wet stages. You say I didn't because the truth I presented was not what you wanted to hear. You have asked me this before and I have answered you. The reason you are asking again is to just cop out from responding to my post...the same old typical trick of yours.

Your right about one thing, which is wasting time... seeing YOU do a good job of wasting both God's time and mine.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

I don't believe it's not a grace versus works issue.

Grace

We cannot have faith without grace. So, first comes God's grace (a free gift to all). Then comes the acceptance of God's grace (not all accept, however). The Justification process is just that ... a process ... not an instant in time.

Faith

Is faith merely trust? Trust in the Lord is absolutely necessary to have faith, however, I believe it is more than that. Justifying faith also involves a real mental act of faith, consisting of a firm belief in all revealed truths.

(Rom 4:5) The justifying faith of St. Paul is identical with the mental act of faith or belief in Divine truth; for Abraham was justified not by faith in his own justification, but by faith in the truth of the Divine promise that he would be the "father of many nations" (cf. Rom 4:9). In strict accord with this is the Pauline teaching that the faith of justification, which we must profess "with heart and mouth", is identical with the mental act of faith in the Resurrection of Christ, the central dogma of Christianity (Rom 10:9).

Justification

Justification is a transformation process of the sinner from the state of sin to that of sanctifying grace ... where a state of habitual holiness and sonship of God begins.

St. Paul emphasizes that faith is needed for justification. He does not, however, say "faith alone." The only time the words "faith alone" appears in the Bible is in the Epistle of James (Jam 2:14-24 ) where he teaches us that a man is justified by works and not faith alone. I don't believe Paul and James had contradictory beliefs.[/B

The justification process involves action on our part ... perhaps even a lifetime of action. According to scripture, over and above faith (but not without faith), other acts are necessary for justification, such as fear (Ecclus 1:28), and hope, (Rom 8:24), charity (Luke 7:47), penance with contrition (Luke 13:3, Acts 2:38, 3:19), almsgiving (Dan 4:24). Without charity and the works of charity, faith is dead. Faith receives life only from and through charity (Jam 2:26).

Redemption and Salvation

"Are you saved?" asks the Fundamentalist. "I am Redeemed" says the Catholic. As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

Redemption is God's activity in delivering us from the bondage of sin and evil. We have hope in salvation only because OF Christ's life, death, and resurrection. Christ delivered us from the power of sin and evil (Col 1:13-14). God did not, however, take away our free will. We can still choose evil.

Salvation depends upon us to accept God's grace (free gift to all), to become justified through faith (trust and mental act of belief in Divine Truth) and other necessary acts of faith (fear, hope, charity, penance with contrition, almsgiving), and to become sanctified (made holy) by God's grace delivered unto us through prayer and the sacraments of His Church and through lifelong acts of charity.

I believe this is what Paul means when he says he is working out his salvation in fear and trembling with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ.

 

[agape]

Dave,

I'm not quite sure "exactly"what it is you are trying to communicate.

Ephesians 2:4-9
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace [divine favor] ye are saved)

And hath raised [past tense] [us] up together, and made [past tense] [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

We are saved, born again and have eternal life by the grace of God. Our salvation is by faith (alone or faith without works), in Christ who did all the works for salvation for us. Now it is our part to walk in the righteousness and justification of God in Christ in us and produce good works. Salvation first and then good works follow.

James faith (which one already has because of Ephesians 2) without works means not putting one's faith into action after being saved, born again and having eternal life.

If this is what you are saying then I agree.

Also, Paul spoke about working out salvation (which we already have)...Not working FOR salvation....right?

 

[Evangelion]

Agape, I've posted more on this entire subject than you have, and for the most part, my arguments have gone unanswered by you and the rest of the "No baptisms" crowd.

Your latest response is just more smoke-blowing. You won't address my proof texts directly, you keep swerving off to your favourite verses, and you can't even deal with the typology.

So you can strut all you want. but it won't change anything.

 

[Apollos]

The faith that saves is the faith that acts...

The faith that saves is the faith that acts...

Hey Craig –

Jesus gave a commission in Matthew 28:18f for the disciples to go into all the world, teach, baptize, and observe all things whatsoever He commanded . This commission is for the entire world! That is really GREAT – don’t you think? This is a great commission!!

Within this commission Jesus commanded a baptism “into the name of the Father, Son, and HS”. Such a command for and such a BAPTISM as this, was never given BEFORE. You will not find it!

This baptism is given by the AUHTORITY if Jesus Christ who has ALL authority! It is not John’s baptism – which was “unto repentance”, and the apostles and the NT church did not practice John’s baptism, but rather they practiced this great commission baptism that was “in the name of (by the
authority) Jesus Christ”. (See Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, and 19:5.) This baptism was also IN WATER! Acts 10:47f (This baptism is NOT “word” baptism – whatever that is, and this is not HS baptism!)

(Craig – tell us what the baptism “into the name of the F/Son/& HS is - Matthew 28:18f. Hmmm? Can you do that?)

Craig, all you have to do is find where baptism “into the name of the Father, Son, and HS” was practiced BEFORE Matthew 18 – or prove this GC baptism is the same as John’s baptism. (But you cannot!!)

Plus, you continue to ignore that “repentance and remission of sins” would be preached FIRST “in His name” beginning at Jerusalem. No “remission” at Jerusalem??? You are making a liar of out Luke (24:47) and Jesus. This is a really bad combination!

Now tell us where Jesus commissioned a “new” water baptism and explain the difference between the old and the new with proof text!

I have already done this again above this thread and in my last thread.

If you opened the valve of a irrigation tank did you baptize each seed…

I may have. But if I did or didn’t, Mark 16;16, Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3, etc. require an IMMERSION to take place for a baptism to be scriptural!

And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but (on the contrary) tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. Luke 24:49 (KJV)

Of course, this promise was to the APOSTLES ONLY (context Craig – context!!) who waited in Jerusalem to preach repentance & REMISSION as stated in verse 47 of this chapter. BTW, are you saying you believe the Apostles were IN THE BODY ???

Where did Jesus say the apostles would be baptized with the Holy Ghost at Pentecost?

I believe it is inferred when Jesus said “…not many days hence.” And then I look and see the “power from on high” in Acts 2!! This happened “not many days hence”. So WHEN did the Apostles receive the HS IF you do not think it was Pentecost???

Where is this promise made?

John 14:26, 16:13, Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4,5.

The shed blood of Christ IS the new testament.

You insist on using this vague statement over and over and over. You must hide some type of meaning within it for your theology. More accurately, the blood of Jesus ratified (validated) a new testament. If you disagree, it is past time to explain why, and what you mean with that “broken record” of yours!!

Christ did not require man to do anything.

Sure Jesus does. This has already been proven by me at least 3 times here of late. We are past this Craig. We are now discussing exactly what man MUST DO !!

### Second request Craig - Tell us EXACTLY what man must do to appropriate salvation from God. We need you to be quite SPECIFIC!!

Water baptism for remission was superceded in the new testament by faith in the blood Christ shed for remission of sins.

No Craig, His blood made water baptism for remission of sins possible within the New Testament.

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12 (KJV)When one is “baptized in the Spirit” – tell us – how is one RAISED ???

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col. 2:13 (KJV) Craig, this speaks of repentance. Is this something man MUST DO to be saved??

Note this baptism is the OPERATION OF GOD and it is NOT water baptism.

Absolutely ! Just like it was with Naaman and the blind man in John 9!! It was not the water, it was the “operation” of God – just as it is with water baptism!!!

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom. 5:1 (KJV)
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Rom. 5:2 (KJV)

This is not a problem Craig. Faith is believing in God enough to obey what He says to do! Just as Paul said in Romans 6:17f that by obeying from the heart, they were made free from sin, and became servants of righteousness. The faith that saves is the faith that ACTS !!

When faith realizes the salvation of God can be ultimately appropriated by immersion in water, because that is what God says to do, then when faith acts on this information, faith has matured enough to save!

 

[Evangelion]

Here's another one for the Dispys -

• 
  John 1:29.
  The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Hmmm. I don't know how a Dispy would "interpret" this, but I find it hard to believe that the average Jew would be incapable of making any connection between the "Lamb of God", and a blood sacrifice for the covering of sin!

 

[c.moore]

Quote Kevin
I base my beliefs on my faith in God, and my obedience to Him. I believe that we must do what God commands us to do to be saved. A lot of people don't believe this. In the end, we will all give an accountance for our actions (or lack of).


Quote c.moore

Heb:11:1: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Ro:10:17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

faith cometh not by obedience says the bible!


yes we will give account to our rewards, but not salvation if we already believe Ro:8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ro:8:15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Ro:8:16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Ro:8:17: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

If we are adopted ,why must we have to do , when all we fi´rst have to do is just recieve to be a child of God???

I do commandments just because I love the father, and his spirit is in me to help me do God will, but the confession, and repentance alone is what adopt me in the family of God,spiritually.


Quote Kevin

Yeah, but if you base your belief on Jesus, yet do not to His commandments, then you are a liar, and the truth is not in you (1 John 2:4). We have to believe and keep His commandments


Quote c.moore

I do his commands because I am already saved, and found my first love in Jesus.
Of course if I am in love with a person I will do all I can for them just because I love them , and like them, the same is for Jesus,but not to do things to gain salvation or to qualify to be save.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro:10:11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Ro:10:12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Ro:10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

peace

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

Quote Kevin
I base my beliefs on my faith in God, and my obedience to Him. I believe that we must do what God commands us to do to be saved. A lot of people don't believe this. In the end, we will all give an accountance for our actions (or lack of).


Quote c.moore

Heb:11:1: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Ro:10:17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

faith cometh not by obedience says the bible!

I never claimed that faith came from obedience! Sheesh! Faith comes by hearing the word of God. But that faith is useless unless it's acted upon.

yes we will give account to our rewards

Judgement day is when we are deemed worthy, or not worthy, to enter heaven, according to the judgement of Christ. Judgement day is not to give out rewards. Matt.25:41-46 is an example of what will happen on Judgement day. The sheeps and the goats were separated. The sheep went to heaven, the goats went to hell. Simple. Take note that the goats spoken of there because of their lack of works, (which you have already acknowledged).

Quote Kevin

Yeah, but if you base your belief on Jesus, yet do not to His commandments, then you are a liar, and the truth is not in you (1 John 2:4). We have to believe and keep His commandments


Quote c.moore

I do his commands because I am already saved, and found my first love in Jesus.
Of course if I am in love with a person I will do all I can for them just because I love them , and like them, the same is for Jesus,but not to do things to gain salvation or to qualify to be save.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro:10:11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Ro:10:12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Ro:10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

None of this changes my point that if you base your belief on Jesus, yet do not to His commandments, then you are a liar, and the truth is not in you (1 John 2:4).

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Agape,

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding your teaching on salvation. Do you believe you simply have to affirm that Jesus is your Lord and personal savior, then the Holy Spirit comes upon you and you are saved? What happens to a righteous man who turns to wickedness at the end of his life? Did the Apostle Paul presume that his salvation was so secure that he could never lose it? Did he warn the Corinthians about the possibility of losing their salvation? Wasn't he talking to Christians in Corinth ... presumably already baptized?What is faith to you? Is it purely trust? Or, is it a mental affirmation in divine truth? Or, is it both? Did Jesus command us to DO anything for eternal life? How did the 1st century and 2nd Christians baptize? Is there a difference between "works of the Torah" and "good work?" Does our faith grow after baptism? Is justification different from salvation? What is your understanding of redemption? Is it different or the same as justification? as salvation? What is your understanding of forgiveness of sins ... are sins obliterated or are they merely concealed? Do you believe people can be sanctified by God's grace? Can you receive or reject God's grace more than once in your life? Did the apostles teach us to do anything to receive God's grace? Can God use material things (water, oil, bread, wine, etc.) to convey His grace to us? Can an unsanctified soul enter heaven? Are all sins mortal? Is the "Bible alone" doctrine found in the Bible? If not, doesn't the "Bible alone" doctrine contradict itself? How do we know what books are in the Bible and what books are not in the Bible? How many Old Testament books are in the Bible? Did the 1st century Christians most commonly use the Greek translation (Septuagint) or the Hebrew translation of the Bible?

Sorry ... I went a little nuts with my questions. I'm not trying to put you on the spot or anything. I'm just trying to understand you better. I'm certain we are in agreement on many of these things. I'm just not certain which ones.

P.S. I'm going out of town for a few days, so I may or may not see your reply for a few days.

Take care,

 

[drbrumley]

Apollos,

Thank you for your reply.

Bottom line to me is I can care less if you want to be baptized in water.That is your decision and yours alone. What I listed was the requirements of salvation. If you want to call them works, go right ahead. In a way, they are works. I will agree with you on that point.

I am not sure though when you think man reaches the point at which he becomes saved

It is the moment you have ACCEPTED the HOLY SPIRIT's testimony.

-Adrian Rodgers-
The Apostle John wrote an entire chapter to assure God's people that they are indeed God's people. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God: that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life . . ." (1 John 5:13).

The word know means absolute assurance. According to verse 13, it is possible to be saved and know it. But the very fact that John wrote this verse shows that it is also possible to be saved and doubt it.

Is doubt good? No. Doubt is to your spirit what pain is to your body. Pain is a warning, a signal that something is wrong. It does not mean you are dead. It just means that something is wrong.

If you have doubts and you are truly a born again child of God, you are suffering from some spiritual sickness. All Christians doubt from time to time. A woman once told Dwight L. Moody she had been saved for 25 years and never had a doubt. He said, "I doubt you're saved."

But while we may all be bothered by an occasional doubt, it is a problem that must and can be overcome. John said he wrote chapter five to us as God's children so that we may know that we have been saved. The words know, knoweth, or known appear 38 times in this epistle on assurance.

The next logical question, then, is "How can I know?" I know, not because of any confidence that I have in myself, but by two infallible proofs.

-Adrian Rodgers-

The last paragraph you need to answer for yourself.

If your running around telling people you are not not saved, thens there is a serious problem on your part. Plus you tell them they need to be baptized in water, but you still don't know? You are defeating the purpose of the Holy Spirit.

I also think you are taking my words and misapplying them.

Baptism is a work indeed. So are what was mentioned by my post. The problem lies in applying something to Isreal to us. I understand you probably don't see it. But just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. I'm sure you agree with that. And contrary to what Evangelion says, (he even believes in Dispensationalism to an extant.) You too maybe. Most anti dispensationalists are dispensationalists whether they care to admit it or not! Anyway, but back to works, we must acept the atoning blood of Jesus. If that is a WORK, then so be it. I have not heard CMoore say different, I have not heard Agape say different, or even Hope of Glory say different. The issue is baptism and as you know the argument, baptism was an application to Isreal. Not to the Body of Christ. Is it good someone wants to be baptized? Sure it is. But bapism is NOT a qualifer to be salvation. Someone's salvation does not rest on being baptized.

To you you must be baptized to be saved because you apply what was to Isreal.

To me you don't have to be baptized to get salvation. You must do what I previously posted but baptism in water is not the part of salvation.

I hope this sheds alittle light as my difference of opinion with you.

God Bless.

 

[Evangelion]

Where in the Bible are we told that baptism is a "work" in the sense of "something which was necessary under the Law of Moses, but is not no longer necessary for salvation"?

 

[Evangelion]

drbrumely -

baptism was an application to Isreal. Not to the Body of Christ.

Scripture please!

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
Where in the Bible are we told that baptism is a "work" in the sense of "something which was necessary under the Law of Moses, but is not no longer necessary for salvation"?

Water baptism never brought salvation to anyone in the first place. I don't know of any law concerning John's water bapism. However, If one says that we must also be "water baptized" for salvation, then salvation no longer soley relies on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for remission of sins and by the grace of God and therefore it becomes works or an action taken on the part of the person himself for salvation.

Water baptism was for Israel under the Old Testament or Covenant. They followed John the Baptist's instruction to repent and be baptized which was done with water. However, John preached to Israel that one greater than him would come and he, Jesus Christ, would baptize with the Holy Spirit. When Christ died for the remission of sins and God raised him from the dead and he ascended to his Father, the symbolic water baptism was to be no longer a practice for Israel. Jesus Christ last words to his disciples were: For John truly baptized with water, BUT YE SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST NOT MANY DAYS HENCE."

The Gentile Nation was not part of Israel and their practices and they certainly were not obligated in any way to be water baptized. However, since the day of Pentecost, it was available for both Jew and Gentile who believed in Chirst to be baptized with the holy spirit of which both Jesus and John spoke of and taught. The Body of Christ came AFTER the new birth became available and it is made up of born-again believers, both Jew and Gentile. Therefore, there aren't any verses stating that water baptism does not apply to the Body of Christ, because it never did and it never will.

 

[Evangelion]

No answers from you, in other words...

 

[c.moore]

Quote Kevin

I never claimed that faith came from obedience! Sheesh! Faith comes by hearing the word of God. But that faith is useless unless it's acted upon.


Quote c.moore
Don`t you have to believe the word when you hear it first before wanting to act on it or upon it??????????


Quote kevin
Judgement day is when we are deemed worthy, or not worthy, to enter heaven, according to the judgement of Christ. Judgement day is not to give out rewards.



Quote c.moore
Then what does this mean Ro:8:1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit???

Joh:3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh:5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ro:8:34: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

If a person is not condemned my understanding is that he or she is going to heaven and there is no need for judgement if they are not condemned.


rewards rewards

1Co:9:17: For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
2Jo:1:8: Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

2Co:5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1Co:3:8: Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co:3:9: For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Co:3:10: According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co:3:11: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co:3:12: Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co:3:13: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co:3:14: If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co:3:15: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Let God bless you

 

[agape]

Originally posted by Evangelion
No answers from you, in other words...

Oh you got your answer and you know it Evangelion. You just can't face the truth and realize you have been wrong all along.

 

[Apollos]

Knowing about salvation...

Knowing about salvation...

Dr.B-
Thank you for your polite response. I was disappointed that it so devoid of scriptures to substantiate what was being said. Do not think I do not understand your position. The reason I refute it handily and readily is that I do know where you come from.
Previously I said – “I am not sure though when you think man reaches the point at which he becomes saved…”
Your response was –

It is the moment you have ACCEPTED the HOLY SPIRIT's testimony.

Unfortunately for your position, there is not ONE example or passage in all of the NT that will exemplify or prove your statement here. Not one!

All examples of conversion in the NT (Acts – see my previous post this thread for passages) show that they were baptized in water to ultimately receive the gift of salvation that God was offering to them and any other who would in humble obedience to His will, comply with what God required them to do!

Baptism is a work indeed. So are what was mentioned by my post. The problem lies in applying something to Isreal to us.

I do appreciate your candor here. Yes, we both believe works are required to obtain salvation from God. We just do not agree which works are required, or must be completed, to get to that POINT that man is finally saved!!

(Craig and agape become bilious if forced to admit such, but they ALSO believe man must do something, while hiding behind “belief only”. It soothes their “theological aesthetics” to say such !!)

The examples in the book of Acts shows that the recipients expressed their JOY or their REJOICING after becoming saved. Of those shown, this JOY has come AFTER their WATER BAPTISM !!!

Knowing what water baptism is FOR and knowing WHAT IT DOES is the key to understanding and KNOWING that one is saved, and also knowing WHEN one is saved!

“…baptism doth also now save you…” - Peter