The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[agape]

James 2 is talking about faith, being alone, void of works or not putting one's faith into action.

If you see a brother or sister in need and do nothing about it, how can it save him/her? How can one's faith alone, w/o works make them whole, or save them from their troubles. Can faith w/o works save him!? No. Where's the profit if you have faith and don't do anything with it?

Therefore, faith w/o works is dead...empty...lifeless....useless...to no avail and UNPROFITABLE. It's no different than being dead and motionless. If we stay within the context and remoter context there should be no problem in understanding the message of James.

To put it in a nutshell: "Don't just talk the walk BUT WALK THE TALK."

 

[agape]

Originally posted by HopeofGlory
Agape,
Philip preached Christ in this same matter as he had been taught. The eunuch believed that Jesus Christ died for his sins and that God raised him from the dead was saved and born again. This you must prove! Where is the scripture that tells us the eunuch knew that Christ died for his sins?

I did prove it. What else would Philip, who was saved, born-again of God's Spirit and manifested power from on high and spoke with tongues, teach the eunuch?? He preached "Christ" to the eunuch. This is the proof.

As Sherlock Holmes would say; Elementary my dear Watson...elementary.

What do you think he taught the eunuch? Why would God send Philip to the eunuch if God knew he would not believe in Christ, be saved and born again? You tell me what it was all about? What did Philip teach the eunuch?

 

[Freak]

Posters who believe works are essential for salvation:

You are wrong! How many times do I need to teach you the basic truths of the scriptures? The Lord Jesus made it quite clear-Believe unto Him and you will be saved. A look in The Gospel of John points this out.

Works are a mere evidence of the saving faith that you possess.

 

[Kevin]

Dan37,

There is no such thing as a faith without works.

Of course there is, or why would James even mention it? Try telling the people mentioned in Matt. 25:41-46 that there is no such thing as faith without works. They certainly had faith in Jesus, but lacked good works towards man and were thrown in Hell because of it.

You are the one void of understanding.

Hardly.

 

[Evangelion]

Hope of Glory -

Hope of glory is a reference to the Lord Jesus Christ in us.

Thanks for letting me know.

Your abreviation has been used in this thread to mock His title as our hope of glory.

No, my abbreviation has been used for the sake of convenience.

I am sure you are aware of this

No, I didn't think anyone would be so incredibly over-sensitive.

and in His name I ask that you to discontinue using it.

Fair enough. :up:

Very simple?!!!! The new testament is the shed blood of Christ for remission of sins and without it there is no grace.

Correct. But Christ was sacrificed once, for all. There is no more need for sacrifice. We are covered by this single sacrifice, and now find salvation through grace.

Your response is childish

How is it childish?

and it displays a lack of spiritual understanding on your part.

This is a neat little throw-away line which means nothing.

All your learning is worthless without knowledge

My learning is the result of knowledge.

and your quippy remarks are foolishness.

I thought they were rather witty, actually.

*snip*

My reply:
The obedience of your flesh will profit you nothing.

In other words, you couldn't refute my argument, so you decided to fall back on insults. *sigh*

Here, read this and let me know what you think it is saying:

• Matthew 21:28-32.
  But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
  He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
  And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
  Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
  For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
  
• I John 5:2-4.
  By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

You can also throw in the parable of the talents, the parable of the workers in the vineyard, and the parable of the sheep and goats.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the ""flesh profiteth nothing"": the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64 (KJV)

I agree with all of this. What's your point?

If you add your obedience for salvation then you have voided the "free" gift.

No, I have actually obeyed Christ. Can you tell me how we might be saved without obeying Christ? Can you tell me that? Obedience to Christ does not count as a "work." When Paul refers to "works", he refers to the works of the Law of Moses. Your entire argument is based on a false equivocation.

 

[Evangelion]

Hope of Glory -

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. Rom. 4:4 (KJV)
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Rom. 4:5 (KJV)

I agree with all of this. What's your point?

Do you understand, believe, and accept the book of acts in that it applies directly to you as it did to Israel at Pentecost?

Yes, I do. Especially Pentecost. (Baptism for the remission of sins.)

Scripture can be quoted but "faith" in it is required to recieve its blessings.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. We cannot have faith without understanding. Philip explained Isaiah 53, and the eunuch was baptised on the basis of his understanding.

The testimony given by the eunuch was..."I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God". Devils believe this much!

That was his testimony, yes. It proves that he now understood Isaiah 53 to be a reference to Jesus Christ - the man who was slain so that he (the eunuch) might have life. So thankyou for proving my point.

*snip*

Did you notice there is no mention of water baptism in Isaiah 53.

Yes, I did notice that. Did you notice that the eunuch asked to be baptised in water, and that Philip baptised him in water? Did you notice that?

Also, there is no mention of "faith" and don't forget we are saved by grace "through" faith.

Correct. We are saved by grace through faith. And faith without works is dead.

Faith in what?

In the saving power of Christ's sacrifice, and the promises of the Father to Abraham, in which we are called to share.

In works?

No.

No!

Hey, no fair! Now you're just repeating what I said!

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25 (KJV)
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26 (KJV)
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Rom. 3:27 (KJV)

I agree with all of this. What's your point?

How do we recieve remission of sins?

By a faithful confession of our sins, and submission to baptism.

Faith in His shed blood!

Faith without works is dead. Add baptism to faith, and you have remission of sins.

Is Acts 2:38 the gospel of our salvation?

Not entirely. You need more than just a single verse before you have the gospel of our salvation. But the essential principle is there.

No because it is void of the shed blood of Christ for remission of sins as is the preaching of apostles at Pentecost.

The shed blood of Christ for remission of sins is taken for granted in verse 38. The fact that it is not specifically mentioned, is irrelevant. Peter was present with Christ when he spoke these words:

• Matthew 26:27-28.And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
  
• John 6:53-56.
  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
  For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
  He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
  
• John 12:32-33.
  And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
  This he said, signifying what death he should die.

These passages clearly declare the remission of sins through the shed blood of Christ. Peter would have understood them perfectly.

 

[Kevin]

I'm enjoying this!

I'm enjoying this!

Evan,

Excellent rebuttal! Did you notice that Hope of Glory failed to address your previous question of:

Now, would anyone like to tell me how Philip could have explained the Christological significance of Isaiah 53 without making reference to the sacrifice of Christ, and the salvation we obtain through his death and resurrection?

Be my guest...

I noticed . Just thought I'd point that out.

 

[Evangelion]

LOL... yes, I noticed too. He just skipped over it and threw out a few distractions.

Thanks for the support. :up: Glad you appreciated my rebuttal.

 

[c.moore]

HopeofGlory

Faith is required not obedience to water baptism which is a "work" of the flesh. If a work is required then salvation must be earned. Jesus said “it is finished” and therefore no more “work” is required for salvation. Those who do not have “faith” in His finished work say water baptism is required and are still in their sins. :up:

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Rom. 5:9 (KJV)

We are justified by His blood of the "new" testament and the only way that can be received is by faith. Nothing more need be added unless you do not believe. The old message for remission of sins (Acts 2:38) has been superceded by the greater witness of God (John 5:36) and the new message is faith in His blood for remission of sins.

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom. 5:15 (KJV)

We can not add to the finished work of Christ and this "gift" must be received "freely" or it is no longer a gift.


Quote c.moore
You did A great job explain the salvation message, and the offer of the free gift of Christ, without stress , and frustration of man made works of water baptism rituals that does not save.

God bless you :up:

 

[Evangelion]

You did a great job of ignoring my argument, c.moore.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Evangelion
You did a great job of ignoring my argument, c.moore.

Quote c.moore

Which question I didn`t answer????

 

[elected4ever]

Now how should I say this and be clearly understood? I believe that we could all say the same thing and one will say the other is wrong.

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


First of all grace is an attribute of God not a gift. Grace is that which God does on our behalf when we have no merit for the favors He grants. It is favor extended by God when we had nothing to offer and were in no position to to merrit such favor.

Faith is belief. It is not the same as believing that a chair will hold you when you see the chair and take notice that the chair is soundly constructed. Faith is a product of hope. Faith has substace that is part of ones makup as a person. A person can be defined by his beliefs. We sometimes call this the attributes of charactor.

Faith is also the evidence of what you believe about that you cannot prove and that you do not hold in your hand. It is not tangible like a toy or something that you own that you can touch and see, but it produces evidences that are visible to those who surround you. You may call them works whether good or bad and they are observable.

A word needs to be said about hope. Hope is not wishfull thinking but is as real as any tangible thing in this world. Hope is as real as the tree that you see, the house you live in or anything else that you may observe in this world yet you have no evedence that it exist at all except in your mine. It is the very thing upon which you base your whole life an yet you do not possess it in a material sense but to you it is more real than those things you do possess. It is the object of your faith and it is your quest in this life. Faith is not blind but has dirrection and purposs and to us is our reality.

Saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: The faith that is spoken of here is a gift. Not a work. A gift can be received or rejected. If the gift is rejected then it is no longer a gift to the person rejecting the gift. If payment is required for it's reception, it is no longer a gift. A gift is given freely by the giver. Not of works. When are we going to understand that no act committed by man is acceptable to God to receive the gift of faith. No man will be able to stand before God and say because I did this or I did that therefore I merit faith given by Christ Jesus. Salvation is given freely by Christ Jesus and must be received as a gift or not received at all.

Matthew 7:21  ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Do these verses make more sense to you now? Were not these who were rejected doing "good work"? The work is not of God if they are expected to get you through the judgement and justify you before God. There is only one who is justified before God and you must receive the free gift from Him if you expect to stand at the day of judgement. Why? We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

When we were saved we became the work of Jesus, created by Him to do the good work of God. It is through Jesus that we can do the good work that God had before ordained that man should walk in them. It is Christ in us that does the work because we are His "workmanship"

Are you going to stand before God and say "I was water baptized so I deserve this or that". Are not these the ones of whom Jesus will say, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Good works come after salvation not before. The free gift must be received in order to become the workmanship of Christ so that we can do the good work that God ordained that we should do.

John 15:5  I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

May God add His blessing to the teaching of the word. Amen.

 

[Kevin]

Dan37,

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Yes, we are saved by grace through faith. But tell me, what kind of faith is being spoken of here? Is it faith by itself, which is dead, or is it faith that is alive with works of obedience? So many people say that faith only saves, yet I have not seen one of them explain how a dead faith (faith by itself) saves. Faith only does not save.

When Christ was preaching in His ministry, He made it quite clear that obedience to His commandments are absolutely necessary. If you say that you have faith in Christ, yet you don't do the things that He commands us to do, do you honestly think He will find favor in them? No way. Just as He said... "Not everyone who says to Me 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who DOES the will of My Father in heaven." (Matt. 7:21).

So, the people who make it into heaven are those who DO the will of the Father, not those who simply hear and believe and do not keep His commandments. For people to DO the will of the Father, people must actually DO something - WORK!! Yes, believe it or not, God actually requires us to do things!

Can you explain to me how one can "do the will of the Father" without actually doing something (works)?

Hebrews 5:9 clearly states that Jesus Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who "OBEY" Him. Can you explain to me how we can show our obedience to Him without actually doing something (works)?

Jesus Himself clearly illustrates the necessity of keeping His commandments:

Luke 6:46-49:
46) But why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do the things which I say?
47) Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like:
48) He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.
49) But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who build a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.

So, one who hears the teachings of Jesus, and does them not, is in a state of ruin, having no foundation. Jesus expects our obedience. Anybody who says they know Jesus, and do not keep His commandments, is a lowly LIAR and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). Simple fact: Liars will NOT be in Heaven. Therefore, in order to keep His commandments, we must actually DO them, which means.... yes.... WORK. Explain to me how we can keep His commandments with faith ONLY. We are to be DOERS of the word, not hearers... DOERS (James 1:22). If you are not a "DOER" of the word, you are only decieving yourself, not God... and you will answer for it on Judgement Day. Simple.

And since works supposedly doesn't play a role in our salvation, would you explain how we can be judged by our works (Rev 20:12) without it having any bearing on our salvation? How do you reconcile this?
Would you say to Jesus, "No Lord... it's faith only" when He condemned the people in Matt. 25:41-46 to HELL for their lack of WORKS? Would you?

 

[elected4ever]

Keven, what work are you going to add to the finished work of the cross? Haveing begun by faith do you now propose to prefect it with work?

I don,t really understand what you are saying.To me there is no works without faith. It is through faith that we have opportunity to work. Faith produces work and is not a perfecting agent. Works are a natural outflow of faith. Faith is not a natural outflow of work. Why do you keep insisting on the ridiculous?

 

[Evangelion]

c.moore -

Which question I didn`t answer????

Try "Virtually all of them."

 

[Kevin]

Dan 37,

Keven, what work are you going to add to the finished work of the cross?

Show me what I added. Everything I said is backed with scripture, so don't tell me that I added something when I didn't. You are simply unable to grasp the simple but true fact that God does indeed require us to do something.

The fallacy of your arguement is only highlighted by the fact that you didn't answer my questions. Dead faith, which is faith by itself, doesn't save anybody. You know it, and I know it, but your pride will not allow you to admit it.

To me there is no works without faith.

Look around you. All you have to do is find an atheist who does good works. There are people in the world who don't believe in God, yet are very nice people who go out of their way to help people. They are doing works, yet they have no faith in God.

Faith produces work and is not a perfecting agent.

Huh? I don't understand what you are trying to get at here.

Works are a natural outflow of faith.

If it's a faith that is alive to God, yes, I agree.

Faith is not a natural outflow of work.

I agree, what's your point? Where did I say it was? All I've been saying is that faith without works is dead.

Why do you keep insisting on the ridiculous?

I'm not insisting on anything that is rediculous. Did the apostle James say that faith without works is dead? Well? Yes he did. That's what I'm saying as well. How is that rediculous? Are you ever going to address my questions?

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Evangelion
c.moore -



Try "Virtually all of them."

You mean the one that fit your doctrine I didn`t answer?

 

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by dan37

I. Faith produces work and is not a perfecting agent.

May bad. my brain out ran my fingers. Stupid statement. thanks for pointing it out.

What should have been said is "Faith produces work and work is not a profecting agent."

When I gave the teaching on Eph 2 What part of that teaching is not clear to you, Kevin.

 

[Kevin]

Dan37,

What should have been said is "Faith produces work and work is not a profecting agent."

Works are not a perfecting agent of faith? Sorry, but that's just not true at all. Observe:

James 2:22
22) Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Works perfects faith indeed.

When I gave the teaching on Eph 2 What part of that teaching is not clear to you, Kevin.

I've already agreed with you that we are indeed saved by grace through faith. We just disagree what kind of faith that is being spoken of here. You think it's faith only, which the Bible teaches is a dead faith. I think it's faith with works of obedience to Christ's commandments. I never claimed that works saves us. It's faith that saves us, but it's not a dead faith unto it's own.

Can you give me some honest answers to my points and questions that I posed to you earlier?

 

[HopeofGlory]

Evangelion,

I said:
Very simple?!!!! The new testament is the shed blood of Christ for remission of sins and without it there is no grace.

Your response:
Correct. But Christ was sacrificed once, for all. There is no more need for sacrifice. We are covered by this single sacrifice, and now find salvation through grace.

My reply:
Grace is not possible without faith in the shed blood of Christ for remission of sins. If you truly had faith in His blood you would have the knowledge to understand the power of God to forgive sins without water baptism.

You said:
My learning is the result of knowledge.

My reply:
Who's knowledge?

I said:
The obedience of your flesh will profit you nothing.

Your response:
In other words, you couldn't refute my argument, so you decided to fall back on insults. *sigh*

My reply:
Your opinion is worthless for it lacks discernment. Christ said "the flesh profiteth nothing" in reference to the new testament for remission. Do you disagree with His words?

You said:
Here, read this and let me know what you think it is saying:

Matthew 21:28-32.
But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.


I John 5:2-4.
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


You can also throw in the parable of the talents, the parable of the workers in the vineyard, and the parable of the sheep and goats.

My reply:
What's your interpretation and how does it apply to water baptism?

I said:
If you add your obedience for salvation then you have voided the "free" gift.

Your response:
No, I have actually obeyed Christ.

My reply:
No you have not. What does "free" mean to you?

You said:
Can you tell me how we might be saved without obeying Christ? Can you tell me that?

My reply:
Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. Luke 12:33 (KJV)

... go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. Mark 10:21 (KJV)

Have you obeyed as did the church at Pentecost?

You said:
Obedience to Christ does not count as a "work."

My reply:
So then, is this obedience you're referring to a righteous work?

You said:
When Paul refers to "works", he refers to the works of the Law of Moses. Your entire argument is based on a false equivocation.

My reply:
Reading into scriptures words that are clearly not there is not allowed. "Works of the law" does not specifically refer to the law of Moses.

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. Rom. 4:2 (KJV)

Your point is works=works of the law of Moses? Is that right?

In Christ
Craig