The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[c.moore]

Dan 37
That scripture in 2Corithians, put the ice cream on the cake, and that was so true I even learn something from that scripture, it made me investegate in other bibles to show me that it was really the Holy Spirit, because at first I thought JustAchristian was right when I seen the small s, on spirit, but after reading the whole chapter again, and study the verse, I had evidence you it the mark praise God.
Thank for the tip for me also, your doing a amazing job.

God is bless you

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

So this is no assumption.

Yes, you made an assumption. I will underline your assumption from your previous statement:

"I know you said you have a small church, maybe you should check out why people are not joining you doctrine, I think it`s to much works, and ritual for the lost"


You made the assumption that my church has not grown, that "people are not joining" us. That is wrong. You had no factual basis for that statement. I have said that we have a small group, but I never implied that we weren't growing. And by the way... it's not "my" doctrine.

You know that A somebody is one person, is this your growth sence you began you new group??

No. The person baptized a few weeks ago doesn't represent our total growth. We have pretty much doubled in size since we began, from around 20 people to about 40 now.

Like I said, it's not bursting at the seems with growth, but it is growing.

 

[c.moore]

Hello Kevin

Oh, I see.
From the twenty that joined your group, how many are saved???

Just want to hear your good testimony.

peace

 

[JustAChristian]

The Bible is Never Wrong/

The Bible is Never Wrong/

Originally posted by c.moore



I didn`t mean to do the same I was just putting myself in the first grade level, and making JustAchristian look better than I am, so I don`t walk in proudness.
But I see that it looks like I am doing the same back.

So I repent.
I also accept your apology JustAchristian, but please answer my post , if the bibles are wrong or right.

thanks

c.moore,

I believe that everyone who has faith in God will accept that the scriptures are not ever wrong. Paul told Timothy:

"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Timothy 3:15-17.

Paul highlights the benefits of the scriptures. They make one
wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. They are profitable for doctrine, for reproof (proving the truth), correction, for instruction in righteousness. All this is in order that the man of God may be perfect, throughly (completely) furnished unto all good works. This tells us that whatever we know or will ever need to know can be obtained from the scriptures. Only because they are never wrong. God has delivered His complete revelation. Paul uses the term "All" and extended this to mean everything we received in revelation is found in the scriptures. There is no present day revelation receiving. We have the potential to know God's will for our salvation. The means is revealed. It is up to the individual to decide if he or she is going to believe it unto salvation or deny it unto condemnation.

Jesus promised:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." Matthew 7:21-27.

Many believe they are saved and boast of that belief with having done miracles. Jesus says He was never in relationship with them. They were never saved. They had not the faith, once for all times delivered to the saints (Jude 3). Feelings, suppositions, and personal conclusions have no bearing on our being saved. The end result must come from having followed Christ in obedience to His commands.

Where have you built your house? Is it on the sands of doubt and disobedience, or is it on the solid foundation of obedience of Jesus Christ. He said "He that believeth and is baptized will be saved" This is solid foundation...

JustAChristian

 

[carri]

C.Moore--

You asked Kevin this:

From the twenty that joined your group, how many are saved???

All the adults have become members of the Lord's church and we consider all the children to be under God's grace. We don't consider anyone to have joined the church until they have repented of their sins and been baptized into Christ. That twenty doesn't count visitors.

Why have you not responded to my post concerning 2Tim 4:3? Is it because you can't or won't? Here it is again:

Have you not considered that perhaps some churches don't draw an enormous amount of people because the majority of the people don't want to worship with a congregation that teaches the full-fat milk with the meat, and not just some watered-down skim milk version of God's Word? 2Tim 4:3 "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." Most people want to hear that all they have to do to get to heaven is believe in Jesus, and not anything more. Make salvation look like a piece-of-cake with no effort on the sinners part and of course you're going to have people flocking to hear you preach!

It would be down right amazing if that kind of "church" wasn't popular. It's kind of like a get-rich-quick scheme--invest almost nothing and get a huge return. And we know how many suckers there are out there! And, unfortunately, a lot of the people preaching this rubbish are out there to make a buck. It becomes painfully obvious when you take a look at the tv evangelists dripping with diamonds in their fancy suits, which I'm sure you think is just a sign of how God is blessing them for their work. In reality, these people just give Christians a bad name. I've heard unbelievers scoff at these "Christians", using them as an example to explain why there's no way they would want to be a Christian.

Carri

 

[c.moore]

I am still waiting for an answer from this JustAchristian.
What up with your statement this is not the Holy Spirit????????

Quote by c.moore
I am proud of your interpretation of the letter, I`ll give you an A on that

I could get sarcastic back at you on your interpretation of the Holy Spirit, but I will remain in my fruit of meekness, and humbleness.
You need to take the advice from carri, your showing your fruits to much,of the spirit that is guiding you, you should keep it offline so we don`t see the truth about you.

I hope you can get this easy lesson to help you grow.
Sorry if this also come`s to sarcastic.

You said:? The spirit is not the Holy Spirit, but the Law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus -- the New Testament. Don't you agree?

Nope, because this scripture is mean directly the Holy Spirit.

Let`look what the bibles says, JustAchristian.
First let look at the CEV bible.
Quote 2Cor 3:6
He makesus worthy to be the servants of his agreement that comes from the HOLY SPIRIT and not from a written Law.After all, the Law brings death, but theSpirit brings life.

You said:? The spirit is not the Holy Spirit,

Let look at the Living bible.
2 Corinthians 3:6 :: New Living Translation (NLT)

2 Corinthians 3
6He is the one who has enabled us to represent his new covenant. This is a covenant, not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old way ends in death; in the new way, the Holy Spirit gives life.

2 Corinthians 3:6 :: Amplified Bible (AMP)

2 Corinthians 3
6[It is He] Who has qualified us [making us to be fit and worthy and sufficient] as ministers and dispensers of a new covenant [of salvation through Christ], not [ministers] of the letter (of legally written code) but of the Spirit; for the code [of the Law] kills, but the [Holy] Spirit makes alive.(1)

Now JustAchristian , you can fight against the interpretation bibles, not me , or Dan37.

Just to prove that you take things out of context I will explain the king James version in my first grade level as you call it ,to get knowledge from the truth, so you can be free , and grow.
Let`s put this whole chapter under a magnify glass.

2Co:3:3: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink,but with the Spirit of the living God;

2Co:3:17: Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord 2Co:3:17: Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord

2Co:3:18: But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as
by the Spirit of the Lord.

I hope you know how to say you are in err, and admit, you missed the mark because you are a human being with err.

We will be waiting on how you try to get out of what you said, quote :The spirit is not the Holy Spirit,

Let God bless you
peace

 

[c.moore]

Carri
I will answer you quetion also.

 

[elected4ever]

John 1:29  ¶The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30  This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32  And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33  And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34  And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

If you wont to learn something read the verse in context, wont to be a christian.

 

[carri]

C.Moore--

Reading back a few pages I found this on page 88:

A clue to the meaning of baptism is given by three OT types: the flood (I Pet. 3:19-20), the Red Sea (I Cor. 10:1-2), and circumcision (Col. 2:11-12). These all refer in different ways to the divine covenant, to its provisional fulfillment in a divine act of judgment and grace, and to the coming and definitive fulfillment in the baptism of the cross. The conjunction of water with death and redemption is particularly apt in the case of the first two; the covenantal aspect is more particularly emphasized in the third.
When we come to the action itself, there are many different but interrelated associations. The most obvious is that of washing (Titus 3:5), the cleansing water being linked with the blood of Christ on the one side and the purifying action of the Spirit on the other (see I John 5:6, 8), so that we are brought at once to the divine work of reconciliation. A second is that of initiation, adoption, or, more especially, regeneration (John 3:5), the emphasis again being placed on the operation of the Spirit in virtue of the work of Christ.
These various themes find common focus in the primary thought of baptism (in the destructive, yet also life-giving, power of water) as a drowning and an emergence to new life, i.e., a death and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-4). But here again the true witness of the action is to the work of God in the substitutionary death and resurrection of Christ. This identification with sinners in judgment and renewal is what Jesus accepts when he comes to the baptism of John and fulfills when he takes his place between two thieves on the cross (Luke 12:50). Here we have the real baptism of the NT, which makes possible the baptism of our identification with christ and underlies and is attested by the outward sign. Like preaching and the Lord's Supper, "baptism" is an evangelical word telling us that Christ has died and risen again in our place, so that we are dead and alive again in him, with him, and through him (Rom. 6:4, 11).
Like all preaching, however, baptism carries with it the call to that which we should do in response or correspondence to what Christ has done for us. We, too must make our movement of death and resurrection, not to add to what Christ has done, nor to complete it, nor to compete with it, but in grateful acceptance and application. We do this in three related ways constantly kept before us by our baptism: the initial response of repentance and faith (Gal. 2:20); the lifelong process of mortification and renewal (Eph. 4:22-23); and the final dissolution and resurrection of the body (I Cor. 15). This rich signification of baptism, which is irrespective of the time or manner of baptism, is the primary theme that ought to occupy us in baptismal discussion and preaching. But it must be emphasized continually that this personal acceptance or entry is not independent of the once for all and substitutionary work of Christ, which is the true baptism.
It is forgetfulness of this point which leads to misunderstanding of the so-called grace of baptism. This may be by its virtual denial. Baptism has no grace apart from its psychological effects. It is primarily a sign of something that we do, and its value may be assessed only in explicable religious terms. The fact that spiritual gifts and even faith itself are true gifts of the Holy Spirit, with an element of the mysterious and incalculable, is thus denied.
On the other hand, it may be by distortion or exaggeration. Baptism means the almost automatic infusion of a mysterious substance which accomplishes a miraculous but not very obvious transformation. It is thus to be regarded with awe, and fulfilled as an action of absolute necessity to salvation except in very special cases. The true mystery of the Holy Spirit yields before ecclesiastical magic and theological sophistry.
But when baptismal grace is brought into proper relationship to the work of God, we are helped on the way to a fruitful understanding.
First, and above all, we remember that behind the external action there lies the true baptism, which is that of the shed blood of Christ. Baptismal grace is the grace of this true reality of baptism, i.e., of the substitutionary work of Christ, or of Christ himself. Only in this sense can we legitimately speak of grace, but in this sense we can and must.
Second, we remember that behind the external action there lies the inward operation of the Spirit moving the recipient to faith in Christ's work and accomplishing regeneration to the life of faith. Baptismal grace is the grace of this internal work of the Spirit, which cannot be presumed (for the Spirit is sovereign) but which we dare to believe where there is a true calling on the name of the Lord.
Third, the action itself is divinely ordianed as a means of grace, i.e., a means to present Christ and therefore to fulfill the attesting work of the Spirit. It does not do this by the mere performance of the prescribed rite; it does it in and through its meaning. Nor does it do it alone; its function is primarily to seal and confirm, and therefore it does it in conjunction with the spoken and written word. It need not do it at the time of administration; for, under the gracious sovereignty of the Spirit, its fruition may come at a much later date. It does not do it automatically; for, whereas Christ is always present and his grace remains, there are those who respond to neither word nor sacrament and therefore miss the true and inward meaning and power.
When we think in these terms, we can see that there is and ought to be a real, though not a magical, baptismal grace which is not affected greatly by the detailed time or mode of administration. The essentials are that we use it (1) to present Christ, (2) in prayer to the Holy Spirit, (3) in trustful dependence upon his sovereign work, and (4) in conjunction with the spoken word. Restored to this evangelical use, and freed especially from distorting and unhelpful controversy, baptism might quickly manifest again its power as a summons to live increasingly, or even to begin to live, the life which is ours in Christ crucified and risen for us.

Would you kindly give credit where credit is due? It is quite obvious that this wasn't written by you, unless you had someone do some major editing for you--the complete sentences, proper grammar, capital letters, and punctuation make it a dead give-away. I don't know if you are aware of this, but when you copy someone else's work and don't give credit or references for it, it is called plagerism--a form of theft. This isn't the first time I've seen you do this and it really bugs me

If it is the case where someone did your editing and typing for you, then I apologize in advance. If not, then quit taking other people's work and passing it off as your own!!

Carri

 

[Edgar Caiña]

dan37

dan37

Hi dan37,

Perhaps you already have read this reply at the other thread. But I added something. You said

Originally posted by dan37
If one believes that Jesus sined then one could believe warter baptism can save. Jesus was not baptized for the remission of sins but to fulfill all righteousness which is quite different. We are said to follow the Lord in Baptism and if that is the case then it would be necessary for our sin problem to be taken care of before water baptism. We follow the Lord in water baptism to fulfill all righteousness. As the Apostle John said in 1John 4:17 "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world." If we are like Christ then our water baptism is to "fulfill all righteousness" not "for the remission of sins".

When He came to John the Baptist to be baptized, John was obviously reluctant to do so (Matthew 3:14), but Jesus said, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15). Nothing in the verse it’s said that His WB was to be an example to the Christians (especially of today). What does Matthew 3:15 mean?

John’s reluctance shows his recognition of the superiority of Christ to him. Jesus did not deny this superiority, He admits it but He bids John to baptize Him for the time being, meaning He’s submitting His superiority to John’s inferior position for the time being. Why should Jesus be baptized by John? Jesus answered that, “for [them] to fulfill all righteousness." Does that mean in order for Jesus to be made righteous? Of course not, for He already is. But what does that phrase mean?

First, It could be that since God requires all Jews to be baptized and since Jesus was a Jew, He insisted that He be baptized by John to completely identify Himself with them, the sinners. Thus saying, "to fulfill all righteousness" could mean, "to fulfill what God requires."

Second, By His submission to John’s baptism, He, therefore confirms John’s ministry as one approved by God, and that is God’s RIGTEOUSS WILL – “for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.”

And third,There is nothing in the text that says we are to follow the Lord in water baptism.To explain Matthew 3:15 to mean that it was to set an example for future believer is to impose an idea that is not in the text.

 

[carri]

C.Moore--

A couple pages back you posted this:

So know you can see , that it`s not our bad works that condemns us, but because of adam disobedience.

That leaves me with this question: if we are automatically condemned because of Adam's sin, and not our own bad works, then if a 6 month old baby dies, will he go to hell? According to your reasoning the sin of adam condemns him and he obviously doesn't have faith yet, so he won't be saved. Is this what you believe?

Carri

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by carri
C.Moore--

A couple pages back you posted this:That leaves me with this question: if we are automatically condemned because of Adam's sin, and not our own bad works, then if a 6 month old baby dies, will he go to hell? According to your reasoning the sin of adam condemns him and he obviously doesn't have faith yet, so he won't be saved. Is this what you believe?

Carri

No, the baby will not go to hell, because there is something called mercy, and grace,and Jesus sid some thing about the love for children, suffer that not.
So basically Jesus intercedes for the baby ,and children until they can make a free choice.

 

[c.moore]

Edgar Caiña
To explain Matthew 3:15 to mean that it was to set an example for future believer is to impose an idea that is not in the text.


That was a good one, I hope the diving teams understands you post.

God bless you

 

[c.moore]

C.Moore--

You asked Kevin this:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the twenty that joined your group, how many are saved???
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All the adults have become members of the Lord's church and we consider all the children to be under God's grace. We don't consider anyone to have joined the church until they have repented of their sins and been baptized into Christ. That twenty doesn't count visitors.

Why have you not responded to my post concerning 2Tim 4:3? Is it because you can't or won't? Here it is again:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you not considered that perhaps some churches don't draw an enormous amount of people because the majority of the people don't want to worship with a congregation that teaches the full-fat milk with the meat, and not just some watered-down skim milk version of God's Word? 2Tim 4:3 "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." Most people want to hear that all they have to do to get to heaven is believe in Jesus, and not anything more. Make salvation look like a piece-of-cake with no effort on the sinners part and of course you're going to have people flocking to hear you preach!

It would be down right amazing if that kind of "church" wasn't popular. It's kind of like a get-rich-quick scheme--invest almost nothing and get a huge return. And we know how many suckers there are out there! And, unfortunately, a lot of the people preaching this rubbish are out there to make a buck. It becomes painfully obvious when you take a look at the tv evangelists dripping with diamonds in their fancy suits, which I'm sure you think is just a sign of how God is blessing them for their work. In reality, these people just give Christians a bad name. I've heard unbelievers scoff at these "Christians", using them as an example to explain why there's no way they would want to be a Christian.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The twenty that repented, and are members, and got watered baptized, are they saved???

Do those people after all their membership to your group have confidence that they are going to heaven ?????.

I`ll be waitning for your testimony as well sence kevin won`t anwser my request.

Let me continue with your statement on 2 Tim 4:3 and the prosperious churches.

I know people like yourself personally, that was members to our church , and broke off too start their group.
The reason why they left is because of the same scripture, they used it so they can find an excuse to leave , and they wanted their own interpretations of the bible.
the group has also grown from 15 to about 25 members , but it been that way for the last 18 years.
Even the church they have is not their own, it just a rent out place, and the pastor and his wife has to work a full time to help pay for the church because they don`t believe in tithes, and offering message, and prosperity in overflow.
So they are fighting to keep the church doors open.

Can this be our Father will which created this world and everything on it , including the buildings, and money????

the reason why most people don`t like tv evangelist like Benny Hinn , Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar,billy Grahm,Kenneth Copeland and T.D Jakes, and many powerful tv christian channel , is because they are proving that Jesus is supporting them, and they can`t compare with their powerless doctrines.

ther devil hates revivals, because multitudes of people go to see the power of God work, so other churches rebell against the evangelist that lead the revivals, because they are doing what they can`t do, and won`t do.

look what is said in verse 5,But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

How can people that say they are follower of Christ , and disobey, by not evangelizing , and bringing other to Christ, and come against Evangelist, that are on tv, or do street witnessing, and more???????

I know alot of churches that don`t teach the bible, they have their church service based on traditions, and it is timed out to last only 10 to 15 minutes, and they don`t let even the Holy Spirit lead the church, or invite the Spirit of God to function in their church. No one brings a bible with them, and they don`t learn nothing, except to hurry to get their milk and cakes in the church kitchen.
This is meant by the scripture you quoted, because they are not excited about the Word of God they are happy to get home as soon as possible to do their own things, and they only want people to see their face on sundays in the place, but they forget about the anointing, and the anointer.
What a shame.
You can see this more in a Catholic church, and the religious churches as well. I call them the Jesus club house.

Most so called christians are afraid of the power of God, and the anointings. They hate the gift of discernments and prophets, because that reveals the truth of who they really are, and these gift show sometime the real wolves from the sheeps, and that their doctrine , and belief is from the devil.
We had a prophet of God come to our church , and he told about all the people that would leave , because their God is really money, and their trust is more in their money, and worldly material than with God.
So alot of people left our church, because they couldn`t accept the revelations.
We had one man of God called billy Smith, which you can look up on your computer search, he had so strong of an anointing and gift of discernments, that people were afraid to come to church when he was there, because he can see your sinfull secret lusts,and false belief. It was like God let him see what God see´s.
I wish he would go to your group because, it will either grow instantly, or dissolve.
Sence this make of God was in our church , our church has grown to over 400 members.
You can see my church for proof on my web site link to the Jesus Centruim, and you can see our brand new church building that is paid for and belongs to us, even the land is bought, thank you Jesus.
If Jesus can do all this for us , he can do it for all anointed churches, if they are really trusting , and preaching the good new.
But watch out the devil is a deciever.
Jesus doesn`t want us to live in just enough, he want us to live in overflow, so we can help the poor, and be a doer of thwe Word of God, because our love to Jesus.

Why do you think most people hated Jesus,and some talked bad about Jesus, was because of His powers, and signs and wounders.

The devil alway get people to judge all the other evangelists , and tv ministrys, from one or few people who did not obey, or faked, or rob people , and lied, but just because some missed the mark, don`t blame all for the same reason.
I know the white man put my fore fathers in slavery, but I don`t blame all the white people for thier mistake.
I hope you get my point at this, because this is a key the devil is using on many to decieve them to bring divisions, and false doctrinwe as well.


Let God Bless you Carri, and your group.

 

[Kevin]

c.moore,

I`ll be waitning for your testimony as well sence kevin won`t anwser my request.

Testimoney? Of what? Can't you deal with the fact that our numbers have grown? What exactly are you getting at?

And why do you keep asking "are they saved"? Am I God? NO! It's NOT my, or any other human's judgement to say who is saved and who isn't.

 

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Kevin
c.moore,



Testimoney? Of what? Can't you deal with the fact that our numbers have grown? What exactly are you getting at?

And why do you keep asking "are they saved"? Am I God? NO! It's NOT my, or any other human's judgement to say who is saved and who isn't.

Quote c.moore
testimony that Jesus is living in them and they are in the book of life. I am glad your numbers grew, but it would be better to know they are victoriuos anointed ones with powers
I am getting at , that we have more anointed powerful people that know they are saved NOW I keep asking because you never say are they saved, at least they should themselves tell others they are saved

I know you are not God , but at least they should know if they are saved personally.
Shouldn`t we know if we are sons and daughters, or if Jesus is in us , or the devil is in us????

We should know if we are sheeps or still pigs, wailing in our mud.

peace

 

[c.moore]

Let me explain this to those who don`t know if you are saved or not.

A person can get saved and sometime still do old sins, but they are trying to love the Lord and change their lives.
But a sinner will not try to change, and they don`t believe, and trust Jesus.

let look at this exaple from A preaching from T.D.Jakes.
He mention about a pig, and a lamb, and they both go in the mud, and get dirty, both of them, and the lamb has the same dirt as the pig , but the pig loves the mud and filth, but the lamb is another animal, and it goes in the mud but it yells mmmmmmmaaa,,mmmmaaaaa help me , clean me, mmmeaaaa wash me.
Some christian are like this, and I was at one time like this, I got dirty, but I was still a sheep to God, and I knew I was until God cleaned me up.
The real sinners to day love and practice their sin, and filth, and they fall all in it , but as love as we stay a sheep , we belong to Jesus.

AMEN

 

[HopeofGlory]

JustaChristian

You said:
Symbolism needs to be understood in order to give proper biblical interpretation. Water is symbolized as a grave in Romans 6:3-5. We are buried in the grave of water. A grave consist of a hole, dirt and covering up. When we understand this we can understand the implications of the burial. Not only did Paul say that we are baptized into Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:3), but he goes on to say that we are "baptized into his death." It was in Christ's death that he shed his blood, and his blood is that which remits sin. However, we must come into contact with his blood before our sins can be remitted. Where do we contact the blood of Christ? Paul tells us that it is in baptism. If he shed his blood in his death (and he did), and we are baptized into his death (and we are), then it is in baptism that we come into contact with the blood of Christ, which is able to cleanse away sin (Acts 22:16). If not, why not?

Water baptism is not a sign of what we believe! The death and resurrection of Christ is the only sign of our faith. Christ made this very clear in the gospels.

"Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

The words of Christ reveal that it is an evil people who believe in any other sign. Water baptism was superceded by the cross which is a greater witness granting eternal life for all who have faith in His shed blood.

The words of Christ:
"But I have greater witness than that of John (The Baptist): for the works which the Father hath given me to finish (John 19:30), the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me."

We must believe the words of Christ and in doing so we can define right doctrine. Your interpretation of scripture is corrupted by your false doctrine. You have received the witness of John the baptism and believe water baptism is a sign of our faith thus voiding the clear witness of Christ that no other sign will be given. The testimony of obedience to the ritual of water baptism is a work of the flesh contained in the Mosaic law. After Christ shed His blood He gave us a greater witness for remission contained in the "new testament" (Matt 26:28).

Again, the words of Christ:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
But there are some of you that believe not."

It is true that the flesh can profit nothing! You pervert His words and believe that remission of sin can not be received without the obedience of your flesh to the ritual of water baptism.

Christ shed His blood of the new testament for remission and all who have FAITH in His "finished work" receive remission without works of the flesh.

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through "faith in his blood", to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

It is by FAITH that we "come in contact" with the blood of Christ for remission of sins. Our baptism is not in the earthly element of water but it is by the Spirit when we believe the spirit words of Jesus Christ.

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, they are spirit, and they are life."

Paul said:
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Yes, it is the blood of Christ that is our spiritual drink and when we receive it by faith we are BAPTIZED by the Spirit into the body of Christ. This drink is how we come in contact with the blood and it Spiritually cleanses us on the inside. Immersion in baptismal water will only remove the filth on your body maybe you should drink it instead!

You said:
In the latter part of Gal. 3:27, Paul states that in baptism we "put on Christ." Again we come to symbolism. Let me use a very simple illustration which all should be able to understand. Until a person puts on his coat, he is out of the coat. Once he has put the coat on, he is in the coat. Just so it is in our relation to Christ. We are out of Christ until we put Christ on, and Paul plainly states that we put Christ on in baptism. Therefore, until one is baptized "into Christ" he is out of Christ, because he has not put Christ on! I can hardly see how anyone can possibly misunderstand such plain, simple language, and yet there are thousands who seemingly cannot understand this, because they shout long and loud that baptism is not essential to salvation.

Your analogy is ridiculous and it is a example of how you believe you can obtain righteousness by works of the flesh. If a person puts on a coat he does not become part of the coat. Spiritually by the operation of God (not water baptism) we are baptized into His body and receive His righteousness. Water is not in the context of Gal 3. You continue to shout -WATER,WATER !!! every time you see the word baptized but there is only ONE baptism (Eph 4:5) for us today and it is by the Spirit (1 Cor 12:13).

Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are "risen with him through the FAITH of the operation of God", who hath raised him from the dead.

In Christ
Craig

 

[c.moore]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by JustAChristian



C.moore,

I know you believe this verse proves your case, but it doesn't. I will show that this is NOT the HOLY SPIRIT.

This verse says that "...the letter killeth..." Now I would ask you. What is the letter that kills? Is this a literal letter?
If it is, which letter is it? Is it an "A" or perhaps a "B"?
Maybe it is a "C" as in C.moore. Which letter is it. Now don't tell me you don't know which letter it is. Perhaps it is the "Z". Yeah, I believe it is the "Z". Maybe it is two ZZ's. Or perhaps it is an "A" with a "Z". Anyway, Paul says that the letter killeth.

Now, I've been silly! You know I've been silly. Letters don't kill, unless you get too many in Alphabet Soup and choke to death. But Paul said that the letter kills. What does Paul mean. I believe he is making a metaphor. Do you know what a metaphor is? It is compaing two things without the use of like or as. What is Paul comparing? He is comparing the letter to the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses kills. How does the Law of Moses kills? It kills by condemning. Paul told the church at Corinth: "For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory". (2 Cor 3:9). So, the letter Paul is speaking of is the Law of Moses.

Now, what is "the spirit that giveth life"? Since I have shown you that the "letter" is a metaphor. Now, this is seventh grade English. You did go to the seventh grade, didn't you c.moore? You write like a first grader and think like a two year old, but maybe your rationalize like a seventh grader.

Now, follow me on this! What gives life? The spirit. Do we have a contrast? I believe we do! What is one part of the contrast? It is the letter (The Law of Moses). Now, what is the other part of the contrast? It is the Law of Christ, the ministration of righteousness (the spirit). So, you see? The spirit is not the Holy Spirit, but the Law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus -- the New Testament. Don't you agree? Peter said: "...seeing you have purified your soul in OBEYING THE TRUTH..." (1 Peter 1:22). Isn't my reasoning making sense? Now don't go running to dan37. He'll just mess up you mind! Think about it on your own. You're a "big boy". I know you're a big boy. Now here it is one more time. The letter is the Law of Moses and the spirit is the Law of Christ. They are contrasted. This is no verse to try to prove that the Holy Spirit give cleansing salvation.

Since I have proved that your first point is false, the balance of your post is false and needs no response.

JustAChristian
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Quote by c.moore
I am proud of your interpretation of the letter, I`ll give you an A on that

I could get sarcastic back at you on your interpretation of the Holy Spirit, but I will remain in my fruit of meekness, and humbleness.
You need to take the advice from carri, your showing your fruits to much,of the spirit that is guiding you, you should keep it offline so we don`t see the truth about you.

I hope you can get this easy lesson to help you grow.
Sorry if this also come`s to sarcastic.

You said:? The spirit is not the Holy Spirit, but the Law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus -- the New Testament. Don't you agree?

Nope, because this scripture is mean directly the Holy Spirit.

Let`look what the bibles says, JustAchristian.
First let look at the CEV bible.
Quote 2Cor 3:6
He makesus worthy to be the servants of his agreement that comes from the HOLY SPIRIT and not from a written Law.After all, the Law brings death, but theSpirit brings life.

You said:? The spirit is not the Holy Spirit,

Let look at the Living bible.
2 Corinthians 3:6 :: New Living Translation (NLT)

2 Corinthians 3
6He is the one who has enabled us to represent his new covenant. This is a covenant, not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old way ends in death; in the new way, the Holy Spirit gives life.

2 Corinthians 3:6 :: Amplified Bible (AMP)

2 Corinthians 3
6[It is He] Who has qualified us [making us to be fit and worthy and sufficient] as ministers and dispensers of a new covenant [of salvation through Christ], not [ministers] of the letter (of legally written code) but of the Spirit; for the code [of the Law] kills, but the [Holy] Spirit makes alive.(1)

Now JustAchristian , you can fight against the interpretation bibles, not me , or Dan37.

Just to prove that you take things out of context I will explain the king James version in my first grade level as you call it ,to get knowledge from the truth, so you can be free , and grow.
Let`s put this whole chapter under a magnify glass.

2Co:3:3: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink,but with the Spirit of the living God;

2Co:3:17: Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord 2Co:3:17: Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord

2Co:3:18: But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as
by the Spirit of the Lord.

I hope you know how to say you are in err, and admit, you missed the mark because you are a human being with err.

We will be waiting on how you try to get out of what you said, quote :The spirit is not the Holy Spirit,

We will be waiting on how you try to get out of what you said, quote :The spirit is not the Holy Spirit,



Let God bless you
peaceWe will be waiting on how you try to get out of what you said, quote :The spirit is not the Holy Spirit,

 

[HopeofGlory]

Just

You said:
The apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and those who believed Peter's preaching were baptized in water in the name of Christ on the same day. Cornelius was overwhelmed with the Holy Spirit and the same day, likely within the same hour, was baptized in water in the name of Christ. Jesus told Nicodemus that without being "born of water and of the Spirit" one can not enter this spiritual family, the church (John 3:1-8). "Born of water and of the Spirit" refers to the one new birth, accomplished when one is baptized in water according to (or, as directed by) the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5).

Prove with scripture at Pentecost that the apostles were "baptized" with the Holy Ghost! The apostles were "filled" with the Holy Ghost thus receiving power but it is not stated they were "baptized" with it. Those at Pentecost were baptized with water and had to endure to the end. One baptism not two! God interrupted Peter and the household of Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before Peter could command they to be water baptized thus proving the obedience to water baptism was not required for Gentiles who were without the law. At Pentecost Jews were accepted under the gospel of the circumcision. Paul was called to deliver the message to the Gentiles.

"NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

We do not need to be washed with water because we are spiritually washed by the Holy Ghost with the spirit words of Christ.

To Nicodemus:
Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John 3:13 (KJV)

Born of water is a reference to the earthly birth...."That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit".

Two separate births, one earthly and the other Spiritual. Jesus did not say the two are one but in context He was speaking of earthly things and heavenly things, they are not the same and Nicodemus did not understand as you do not understand. You go to great lengths to pervert the words of Christ.

You said:
Holy Spirit baptism was never given as a command. How could it be? It was administered by deity, not men. And it was administered at a time and under circumstances chosen by deity, not by men. Water baptism, on the other hand, was given by command (Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47,48; Acts 22:16). This is a baptism administered by men, and when performed scripturally is approved of God. And it is a baptism men submit to of their own free will. At a time of their choosing, in obedience to the Lord's command.

The apostles were not command to baptize, they were commanded to teach and the words they taught would spiritually wash (baptize) the believers.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:1 Peter 1:24 (KJV)

Compare to the words that Jesus spoke to the apostles in reference to the new testament.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64 (KJV)

The new testament was not delivered by Peter at Pentecost!
Peter still taught remission in water baptism as did John the Baptist before the cross both were a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. The message was by works of righteousness and required endurance to the end to have their sins blotted out (Acts 3:19). Our sins are remitted the moment we believe and we receive the gift of eternal life. They (Israel) at Pentecost had to obey in water baptism "before" receiving the Holy Ghost (Acts 5:32). The Pentecostal experence was to the circumcision not Gentiles.

Jesus told the apostles..."These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Yes, God was right to interrupt Peter before he could commanded the Gentile Cornelius to be water baptized and God gave Cornelius the gift of the Holy Ghost before obedience.



In Christ
Craig