The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

[HopeofGlory]

Re: Freak's Own Words Accuse Him

Re: Freak's Own Words Accuse Him

Hope,

Please dispense with doctrine (I mean this in a certain sense) and just be HONEST. Know something by its words and actions. (I realize in this case, we only have words).

When Freak opened up this topic, he denounced my views of baptism as heretical on the following basis.

1. Baptism is not mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15 (neither is Christ's blood by the way).

THAT was his point. The original post had NOTHING to do with whether or not the baptism I believe in is unto "another" Christ.

Just LOOK at the start of Freak's topic to find even a HINT of that. It won't be found.

THEN I brought up Romans 6:4. He then SWITCHED (LIED, DECEIVED). He tried to put on the appearance of ALL THE WHILE attacking my belief that baptism is part of the gospel NOT by claiming 1 Cor 15 and its not mentioning baptism, BUT by saying my view is heretical because I believe in a baptism unto "another" Christ.

That is just plain dishonesty.

Now, one thing I see often in these kind of forums is the sinful practise of preferring a person's words BECAUSE of what that person believes.

Such as:
o2 has this weird non-Trinitarian belief. Thus, I will typically find him to be wrong - no matter what.

Freak is Trinitarian and is a zealous defender of the truth (hooray!). Thus, I will typically defend him - no matter what.

The truth is, the words we offer contain their own innate veracity. Regardless of what Freak believes and regardless of what I believe, the words often stand, just as they are.

In this case, Freak is being a dishonest, deceiving LIAR.

Also in this case, sadly, you appear to be in the category of defending Freak because you like how he believes and dislike how I believe.

Freak's behavior, sometimes, is beneath the typical behavior of the heathens that post in this forum.

Nice "ally," huh?

o2

O2bwise, I don't believe you can read minds and you have gone a little overboard with your understanding of my intent. My point is as I stated "If o2bwise believes that Christ is separate from the Father then who's Spirit are we baptized by? Is it the Spirit of God or the Spirit of Christ?". If I misunderstood Freak's point then I apologize to you and Freak.

This question is still to you..."Is it the Spirit of God or the Spirit of Christ" that baptizes spiritually.

 

[Jason]

Spot on Tralon!!!

This is what baptism represents.When you are immersed in the waters of baptism you are IDENTIFYING yourself with Jesus Christ

The following is what God does when He saves you:

He identifies you with the Lord Jesus. In His death your flesh has been judged at the cross. In His resurrection you have a new life with Him. You are baptised into Christ. "Baptism now saves you".

When a Christian asks to be baptised by water he should know that he is witnessing to the following position. He is dead in the flesh but alive in Christ. Christians should realize that the act of baptism is God's work, they are simply witnessing to that work by being baptised in water.

The receiving of the atonement results in God baptising you into Christ by the Spirit. The reason why Christians enter into a debate, whether Baptism is part of the Gospel message or not, is for the following reasons.
1) no distinction is made between the Gospel delivered to the Jew and the Gospel delivered to the Gentile.

2) A misconception that there is more than one baptism. The bible speaks only of one. (Eph 4 v 5 ) Note: although there seems to be 2 separate baptisms, water and Spirit, I have argued that our Baptism by the Spirit is the work of God to which we are positioned in Christ. Baptism by water does not achieve a new position. It should not be considered apart.

God saves. We can do no more but to witness to this.

In Him
Jason

 

[EricU]

But if baptism is required for salvation then Jesus lied to the thief on the cross.

Jesus assured the thief that he would be in paradise with him. He was never baptised. He was on the cross.

Baptism doesn't mean salvation. I know several people who only went through baptism because they thought it was what people did. They cared nothing for God or even talking about Him. Only several years later did some of them actually admit this, even though we had kinda suspected, and commit their life to Christ. Baptism has no power if the person is not willing.

 

[servantofChrist]

Whoa there, "Freak!"

There are so many conflicts and contradictions in what you've presented it's really hard to know where to start.

You cite scriptures mentioning salvation being given to the individual, but with no mention of baptism. For instance, Acts 16:31 - "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household." According to your own logic, and your own use of the scriptures, if that is ALL that is necessary for one to be saved, then one can keep on being a liar, a thief, a fornicator, an adulterer, or even a murderer, and be saved only if he believes in the Lord Jesus. That is the NECESSARY CONCLUSION we must reach, and believe, according to YOUR logic - BECAUSE ACTS 16:31 SAYS NOTHING ABOUT REPENTANCE! Moreover, I can just ignore Rom. 10:10, which says, "with the mouth confession is made unto salvation," and believe and teach everyone else that they don't have to confess the name of Christ to be saved, because Acts 16:31 says all you have to do is "BELIEVE" in Him!

What do you think, Freak?

Also, please answer this: Why do you do a "patchwork" with the New Testament scriptures, picking and choosing the ones that fit what you believe, and conveniently dodging or detouring around others that say more on the subject of salvation? Like 1 Pet. 3:21, which says - "Baptism also now saves you"?

Those 5 words, inspired by the Holy Spirit, spoken by the apostle Peter, form an INDEPENDENT CLAUSE - a COMPLETE THOUGHT which STANDS ALONE. "Baptism" is the subject, "saves" is the verb, telling what baptism does, and "you" is the direct object of the verb - making "you" (all of those who obey the Lord in baptism) the direct object of the action being performed by baptism - which is being "SAVED!"

I await your comments, Freak!

 

[servantofChrist]

Hi EricU,

I appreciate what you said about the thief on the cross. But there's no contradiction at all about the theif being saved without baptism and the belief/teaching now that baptism IS necessary. Here's why...

First of all, Jesus had "authority on earth to forgive sins" (Mk. 2:10). Thus, as He went about healing the sick, at times he would say, "Son, your sins are forgiven" (eg. Mk. 2:5).

But AFTER THE CROSS the time came when Jesus would no longer be on the earth to forgive men of their sins as He had been doing. Instead, in His final hours, while with His disciples, He gave TO THEM the following 3-part, great commandment - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you...." (Matt. 28:19-20).

Notice the 3 things that the Lord COMMANDED: (1) Make disciples (2) Baptizing them (3) Teaching them to obey everything.

The scope of the command was universal - "ALL NATIONS." And he COMMANDED his apostles to BAPTIZE those who would be His disciples - now watch this, EricU, and everyone else, please: Jesus not only COMMANDED these apostles to go and make disciples, baptizing them, He also told THEM to tell THOSE WHO HEARD THEM to obey EVERYTHING He had commanded - And He had just COMMANDED BAPTISM!

Therefore, people of "all nations" who wish to be a disciple of Jesus Christ have been COMMANDED by Christ, through His apostles, to be baptized: "make disciples of all nations, BAPTIZING THEM...and teaching them to OBEY EVERYTHING I have COMMANDED you...."F

The baptism of Christ had not been appointed yet when the thief was on the cross next to Jesus. Moreover, he could obviously do nothing, being nailed to a cross, in demonstrating his faith in the Lord except to do so verbally. At this point, Jesus still exercised His "authority on earth to forgive sins," so He forgave the thief because of the penitence he showed while hanging on the cross. It was ALL he COULD do.

But when Jesus gave the Great Commission to His apostles, and Luke states that "repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name among all nations beginning at Jerusalem" (Lk. 24:47).

And guess what was preached in the very first gospel sermon to the audience there, beginning at Jerusalem (Acts 2), for them to receive the forgiveness of their sins? Right! "Repent AND BE BAPTIZED, EVERYONE OF YOU [just as Jesus commanded his apostles in Matt. 28:19], in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SINS...." (Acts 2:38)

 

[Sealeaf]

Below are two passages from the catechism of the Roman Catholic Church related to their view of Baptism .


Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 1, Article 1, SubSection 3, Heading 1
1229 From the time of the apostles, becoming a Christian has been accomplished by a journey and initiation in several stages. This journey can be covered rapidly or slowly, but certain essential elements will always have to be present: proclamation of the Word, acceptance of the Gospel entailing conversion, profession of faith, Baptism itself, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and admission to Eucharistic communion.


1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

It would seem that Baptism follows the acquistion of Faith but that one can get around the need for it only by martyrdom. I have heard also of the concept of "Baptism of Desire" but was not able to find a direct reference to it in a short search. I believe that it refers to the idea that one may be saved who would have been baptised if he had been aware of the need to be baptised. I think it may be listed under loop holes

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

Do I believe baptism is commanded of course I do just as loving one another is commanded.

Cool. We both agree that Jesus commanded baptism.

But loving people will not get you to heaven. Neither will baptism. Baptism is just that baptism. The blood of Christ however will save you (Hebrews 1:7).

Loving people by itself will not get you to heaven. That is correct. Baptism by itself will not get you to heaven, that is correct. But both of those things are required, along with other things.

After all, if you don't love people, which is said by Jesus to be the second greatest commandment, do you really think that you will make it to heaven? And when Jesus says "He who believes and is baptized will be saved", do you really think that omitting baptism out of that verse saves you, when it's inseperately joined to belief by the word "and"? We are to obey **ALL** of Jesus commands unconditionally. Look at what the scriptures says about obedience:

Romans 2:6-9
6) who "will render to each one according to his deeds."
7) eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8) but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-indignation and wrath,
9) tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

Hebrews 5:9
9) And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

1 John 3:24
24) Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Revelation 22:14
14) Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and my enter through the gates into the city.

It should be obvious from these verses that the only way we will make it to heaven is if we obey His commandments. Bearing this in mind, even you agreed that baptism was commanded by Jesus. If we obey His commandments, then what happens? We are saved. Accoriding to Hebrews 5:9, Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. If you don't obey Him, is He the author of eternal salvation to that person? No.

Instead of putting your trust in a act put your trust in a living Person-The Lord Jesus Christ.

I most certainly do put my trust in Him. I also believe I should obey everything He commands. Do you?

The main difference between me and you is this: I tell others it is Jesus that saves. You tell others it Jesus (as if He is not enough) AND baptism.

Correction, the main difference between you and me is that I teach that Jesus saves us and that we are to obey all of His commandments. You don't, or you would teach that baptism is necessary, for He commanded it (along with many other things). And the Bible is clear about those who do not keep Jesus's commandments.

 

[Freak]

Kevin,

Please do not misunderstand me.

Baptism is commanded. But the issue is: Is baptism essential for salvation? The answer is a resounding NO!!!! Baptism cannot save you or anybody else. Jesus can save you however!

The Apostle Paul made it quite clear salvation is by faith alone. He writes: Having been justified by faith we can have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Kevin]

Ian Day,

ANY COMMENTS????????

Kev pulls out his bag of comments and lays it on the table...

Certainly baptism is commanded, but it is for the believer, already saved, already with new life from the dead, already quickened.

Baptism is for the believer who is already saved? I certainly disagree with that statement. You're probably are familiar with Romans 6:3-6, but I'm going to post it and show you why I believe your statement is in error.

Romans 6:3-6

3) Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

4) Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5) For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,

6) knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

These verses point out what the baptism of Jesus is all about. Notice in verse 5 is says that IF we have been united together in the likeness of His death (being baptized, verse 3), we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, and our bodies of sin will be done away with... no longer being slaves to sin.

Therefore, if have not been united together in the likeness of His death (being baptized), we will not be in the likeness of His resurrection, our bodies of sin won't be done away with, and we will still be slaves to sin.

So explain to me how a person that will not be in the likeness of His ressurection and is a slave to sin is saved?

 

[Evangelion]

???

???

Freak, if you believe that baptism should be performed, yet you don't belive it's essential for salvation...

...why do you think we were commanded to perform it?

What do you think it's there for?

Why did the apostles keep baptising people when they became believers?

Why is it that those who had already received the baptism of John, had to be baptised again after the ascension of Christ?

 

[Kevin]

Evangelion,

Freak, if you believe that baptism should be performed, yet you don't belive it's essential for salvation...

...why do you think we were commanded to perform it?

What do you think it's there for?

Why did the apostles keep baptising people when they became believers?

Why is it that those who had already received the baptism of John, had to be baptised again after the ascension of Christ?

That is exactly what I've been trying to tell him. Obedience to His commandments, every one of them, is necessary for our salvation. Amen and Amen! (Glad to see we agree on something )

 

[Kevin]

Freak,

The Apostle Paul made it quite clear salvation is by faith alone. He writes: Having been justified by faith we can have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Luke 13:3
3) I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

John 3:5
5) Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Neither one of these verses mentions anything about faith, yet, both say that people will perish and/or will not enter the kingdom of God unless the things in these verses are obeyed.

Then you look at James 2:17:
17) Thus also, faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

So faith alone will not save you because dead faith doesn't save! It takes faith along with the works of obeying His commandments. Again, the Bible is quite clear about those who do not keep Jesus's commandment's. And baptism is just one of His many commandments.

 

[kitsune]

Oh, you're not resurrecting the Heretic Club again are you? Freak, you are bad and may not have a Christian biscuit.
Seriously, I think you and O2 are referring to different things when you talk about baptism.

 

[Evangelion]

Well said!

Well said!

Thanks for the support, Kevin.

As you can see, Freak's argument is self-defeating!

 

[Ian Day]

Ian Day,

Kev pulls out his bag of comments and lays it on the table...

Baptism is for the believer who is already saved? I certainly disagree with that statement. You're probably are familiar with Romans 6:3-6, but I'm going to post it and show you why I believe your statement is in error.

These verses point out what the baptism of Jesus is all about. Notice in verse 5 is says that IF we have been united together in the likeness of His death (being baptized, verse 3), we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, and our bodies of sin will be done away with... no longer being slaves to sin.

Therefore, if have not been united together in the likeness of His death (being baptized), we will not be in the likeness of His resurrection, our bodies of sin won't be done away with, and we will still be slaves to sin.

So explain to me how a person that will not be in the likeness of His ressurection and is a slave to sin is saved?

Just as there was a spiritual, heavenly reality in the Old Covenant rites, so there is a spiritual, heavenly reality in the New Covenant rites.

I'm sure you will agree that baptism per se has no saving efficacy. Baptism only has significance for the believing subjects of baptism.

Baptism is A SIGN to the believer of all that the Holy Spirit of God has done in the heart of the believer (death of the old sinful life, and new life in Christ), and of the application of the saving blood of Christ. It speaks of cleansing the conscience, so that the sprinkled water shows the application of the sprinkled blood. (Heb. 9 & 10, 1 Peter 1:2, 3:21.)

While baptism per se does not save, to refuse baptism is to reject the command of Christ. While such people may be saved, they should not be granted membership status in the church, or allowed to partake of the communion.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

 

[Ian Day]

My answers in red.

Freak, if you believe that baptism should be performed, yet you don't belive it's essential for salvation...

...why do you think we were commanded to perform it?

There were various typical baptisms under the Old Covenant. (See Heb. 9) Baptism shows the cleansing by the blood of Jesus. (Among other things.) It is commanded by Christ to show the believer graphically what has been done in his heart. And for the believer to show that he submits to God in repentance & faith, and therefore qualifies to be a recognised member of the church.

What do you think it's there for?

See above.

Why did the apostles keep baptising people when they became believers?

See above.

Why is it that those who had already received the baptism of John, had to be baptised again after the ascension of Christ?

There is only one case of this. Presumably they were not in fact believers, but repented at the preaching of Paul. Note that the had not heard the message of John about Christ baptising with the Holy Spirit.

THere is no suggestion that the Apostles or the 70 were rebaptised. Rather, the baptism of John was recognised:
Act 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

 

[Freak]

Kevin, Evangelion, & all the other heretics,

Go back and reread my post.

Did Paul not say "having been justified by faith" (Romans 5:1). How are we justified according to Paul? By Baptism. Nope, try again. By obeying all God's commandements? Nope, try again. By faith in Christ. YES!!!!

Note that Paul did not mention that justification comes by the act of baptism or obedience to God's commandments. It comes "by faith".

Kevin,

You mentioned James as being evidence that we ought to have works in order to be saved. That is absurd and laughable. At what point will you have enough good works to be saved. By what objective standard do you use to test this? I would think perfection would do it. But the problem is wer're utterly sinful (Romans 3:23) we cannot attain perfection. By the way the Book of James was written to believers those whom already were saved by Christ. Yes, believers who know Christ should have good works. But good works does not save (Eph. 2:8-9).

 

[Ian Day]

Kevin, you say:

So faith alone will not save you because dead faith doesn't save! It takes faith along with the works of obeying His commandments. Again, the Bible is quite clear about those who do not keep Jesus's commandment's. And baptism is just one of His many commandments.

None of us suggest that dead faith has any saving power. It is the subject of our faith - the Lord Jesus Christ - who saves and saves to the uttermost those who come to God through him.

If keeping God's commandments is required we are all lost. As, of course we are. Jesus came into the world to save sinners.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Were Abraham & Rahab saved by keeping the Law? What were the works which showed their faith?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

 

[tralon]

Freak-Inall fairness to others

Freak-Inall fairness to others

Freak your denial of the necessity of water baptism simply does not hold water.One is truely justified by faith in Christ, but baptism is an expression OF THAT FAITH.So much so that Paul says in Rom 6:3-4 and Gal 3:27 that the believer is identiified with Christ BY baptism.It is a confirmation ordinance showing our union with the Lord Jesus Christ.It is the same with communion.We partake of the Lord's Supper as an expression of our faith with Christ in our mind and hearts.We become unified with his death on Calvary.Baptism by water is an essential church ordinance for the believer and is not to be taken lightly.

I personally do not hold to the teaching of "baptism regeneration" as taught by many Christian denominations today, because of the fact regeneration means in essence to produce life.All the water in the ocean could not do this.But water baptism has GREAT spiritual significance of which you overlook.I suggest you restudy the subject.

 

[Evangelion]

Hey Ian!

Hey Ian!

In case you hadn't noticed, I was actually supporting baptism as part of the salvic process!

My questions were directed at Freak, who's been incapable of defending his wild views on the subject.

With regard to a few of your points...

>
There were various typical baptisms under the Old Covenant. (See Heb. 9) Baptism shows the cleansing by the blood of Jesus. (Among other things.) It is commanded by Christ to show the believer graphically what has been done in his heart. And for the believer to show that he submits to God in repentance & faith, and therefore qualifies to be a recognised member of the church.
>

I agree with all of this. But I'd like to add that baptism is also symbolic of death and resurrection. Specifically, the death and resurrection of Christ, with which we identify by our immersion.

>
There is only one case of this. Presumably they were not in fact believers, but repented at the preaching of Paul. Note that the had not heard the message of John about Christ baptising with the Holy Spirit.
>

Actually, we're told that they were believers, and that some of them were converting others. Observe:

Acts 18:24-28.
And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

>
THere is no suggestion that the Apostles or the 70 were rebaptised.
>

Agreed. And it is most likely that those who received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost were considered to be "exempt" from baptism, since they'd clearly been accepted.

>
Rather, the baptism of John was recognised:
Act 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
>

Yes, the baptism of John was recognised. But not in every case.