The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

Freak

New member
Originally posted by Francisco
Jay,
Everyone on both sides of this argument has always confessed Jesus as 'author and finisher of our faith', as you put it. The disagreement lies in whether we actually have to do the things He commanded us, like baptism for instance.

You say all we have to do is believe, we say you have to believe AND follow his commands.

God Bless,

Francisco

Francisco--The Scriptures say all we have to do is believe (for salvation that is). As a result of the salvation God created us for God works (see Ephesians 2:10).

I believe we ought to be water baptized, not for salvation though-Jesus can do that. Water is the created and it is merely symbolic of the spiritual rebirth we have experienced through Christ.
 

Freak

New member
Water cannot Save but Jesus can!

Water cannot Save but Jesus can!

I repeat myself:

Once again water is absent. The teaching in this portion of Scripture is clear:
The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith. By faith not by water.

Read & see for yourself:


You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
 

Apollos

New member
One bucket of chicken - extra hypocrisy !!!

One bucket of chicken - extra hypocrisy !!!

Apollos said…
My guess is that you will not answer – for the third time !!! You have no courage !!!
You deceive yourself about the MEANS through which the power came to heal, just as you deceive yourself about the MEANS through which salvation comes today.

How do I know you deceive yourself? Because you will not answer the simple question I have put to you…

Can Jesus SAVE with water if He so chooses to do so ???

It looks like I am correct Freaky-boy. You have no courage for your convictions!

(I know that you know the sound a chicken makes. How do you spell it ? With one “k” or two ??? Bak-bak-bakkkkkkk !! )


WATER BAPTISM is the means through which man appropriates the salvation offered by God to man through His grace !!
 

Freak

New member
Re: Re: Hydrophobic Phreak !!!

Re: Re: Hydrophobic Phreak !!!

Originally posted by Apollos
Freak –

Of course the power is in Jesus



Originally posted by Freak


Finally you admit Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Good job!
 

Francisco

New member
Jay,
Wanna talk about double speak:

Francisco says: Without any doubt it was Jesus who cured the blind man, but He used water to do it.

First, you acknowledge Jesus was the one who did the healing then you add "but He used water to do it."

Jesus is God-He is Healer. Water cannot heal. You guys are bordering on paganism--thinking somehow the created (in this case water) has some mystical powers. That's insane!

Jesus and Jesus alone.
No my friend, that's not what I'm saying and you know. There is no magical power in water, however our creater, who also happened to create water, can use any and all of His creation however He wants to.

The point was Jesus chose to use water to heal the blind man. So why can you not accept that Jesus chose water to heal us spiritually, by forgiving our sins through baptism?

I'm afraid you are the one engaging in double talk; "Jesus can heal us but he can't use water to do it". That my friend is what is truly insane!

Francisco--The Scriptures say all we have to do is believe (for salvation that is). As a result of the salvation God created us for God works (see Ephesians 2:10).

I believe we ought to be water baptized, not for salvation though-Jesus can do that. Water is the created and it is merely symbolic of the spiritual rebirth we have experienced through Christ.
Some scriptures say belief is necessary for salvation, which is absolutely true. Other say baptism is necessary for salvation:

'Amen, amen, I say to you, one must be born of water and spirit to enter the kingdom of God' (John 3:5)

4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:4)


And these verses are also true.

My point is the verses that say belief is necessary for salvation does not say 'belief is ALL that is necessary for salvation'. You are adding those words yourself. And if those words actually did exist in scripture, then they would be in direct conflict with the verses I just quoted, making scripture contradict itself and rendering it useless.

Maybe you can accept some scripture and ignore other scripture, but those of us seeking the truth with sincerity of heart will not do that!

God Bless,

Francisco
 

Kevin

New member
Francisco,

I saw Freak's comment about my supposed lack of understanding on the book of James this morning on my way out to work and was mentally preparing my agruments to be posted at my lunch break (which is now). You beat me to the the punch (which is quite ok). You posted a beautiful response. Magnificent stuff, my friend!

_____________________


Freak,

I can assure you that my understanding of James is just fine. There's no need to respond, as I would only be rehashing in basis what Franciso said. You just can't seem to understand that faith, if it's not acted upon, is useless in the eyes of God. The book of James spells that out.

Can you answer this simple question for me, Freak?

1 John 2:3-6
3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5) But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6) He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.


According to this passage, how do we know if we are in Christ?
 

Francisco

New member
Kevin,

Thanks for the compliment my friend. I noticed you didn't answer that immediately and assumed you were probably at work or something, so I didn't think you would mind my stepping in there.

God Bless,

Francisco
 

Kevin

New member
Why won't you answer, Freak?

Why won't you answer, Freak?

Freak,

Why do you not answer the questions that are asked of you? I'm not speaking of the one above that I just posted, because I just posted it and you haven't had the time to answer. However, I'd be surprised if you did answer it. Surprise me, Freak. Why all the dodging? If you have the truth, you should be able to answer them, because the truth has an answer for everything.

Will you ever answer:

From servantofChrist:

"If your words are correct, that all one has to do is "turn from self to Christ," then why did the Holy Spirit tell the multitude of Jews in Acts 2 to "Repent and be baptized...for the forgiveness of your sins," instead of telling them to "turn from themselves to Christ" or, to "have faith in Christ for the forgiveness of your sins because you are saved by grace through faith."?"

From Apollos:

"Why the hydrophobia?? I have asked you twice now – and I will ask a third time…

Can Jesus HEAL with water ???
If so, can Jesus save with water ??"


Freak, both of these questions are made valid Biblical points. Why not answer them?

As I've said before, this thread is SO long because people just won't step up and answer the evidence given. Are you really seeking the truth? If so, why not answer the questions?
 
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Kevin

New member
Francisco,

I noticed you didn't answer that immediately and assumed you were probably at work or something, so I didn't think you would mind my stepping in there.

Nope didn't mind at all. :up: Again, great response! :)
 

Freak

New member
Francisco--

You said: My point is the verses that say belief is necessary for salvation does not say 'belief is ALL that is necessary for salvation'. You are adding those words yourself. And if those words actually did exist in scripture, then they would be in direct conflict with the verses I just quoted, making scripture contradict itself and rendering it useless.


This is where you are wrong. Allow me to explain from the Scriptures:

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

How are we saved, my friend? You "have been saved, through faith...not by works"---One attains salvation through faith. Not through water. Faith is all that is necessary.
 

Francisco

New member
Jay,
This is where you are wrong. Allow me to explain from the Scriptures:

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by GRACE you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

How are we saved, my friend? You "have been saved, through faith...not by works"---One attains salvation through faith. Not through water. Faith is all that is necessary.
Really, faith is ALL that is necessary? Can you please show me a verse that says faith is ALL that is necessary?

I realize you probably will point to the verse you just cited and say 'there it is'. However, Paul doesn't say faith ALONE saves us. First, Paul says our salvation is by God's grace, with which I agree. Then Paul says we can't earn salvation by the works of the mosaic law, with which I agree. So where does it say 'faith is ALL that is necessary for our salvation?

Let's take a look at something else Paul teaches us about our salvation:

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Do all things without grumbling or questioning, that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain" (Phil. 2:12–16).

Paul didn't change his mind, you have simply misinterpretted the scripture you cited above. Paul never said faith is ALL that is necessary, and he certainly doesn't say that here.

Here Paul instructs us to DO ALL THINGS, but that is still not the works of the mosaic law Paul speaks of in the verses you cited. Look at what 'works' he speaks of us doing in Phil. 2 - 'for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure'. If God is working through us then we're not meriting anything Jay, we are cooperating with God as we must. And if spend our lives cooperating with God, DOING ALL THINGS commanded of us, including baptism, then and only then will we be saved. As Jesus told us:

"HE WHO ENDURES TO THE END WILL BE SAVED" (Matt. 24:13)

Think about it some more my friend, and read all the scripture, not just the verses that don't mention water, or doing what God commands, etc...

God Bless,

Francisco
 

Apollos

New member
No answers from Hydrophobic Phreak !!

No answers from Hydrophobic Phreak !!

Hi Kevin -

The NON-answers are typical Freaky-boy pedantics.

You, Francisco, SoC, and I have been seeing this on and off for how long now. He usually runs away and hides by now.

It is easy to understand Freak's position. It is the position that all in ERROR wallow in. Once they are truly faced with REASON and TRUTH, they realize they have no explanations and that they have no answers. They are too embarassed to admit they are wrong!

Avoidance of logic and questions, coupled with ignoring reason is the only "defense" they have.

I am not sure what "religion" Freak clings to, but even if he had the truth, I would want no part of it because of the truly sad tactics employed by him and his like.

Freaky-boy, you need a heaping helping of repentance !!!

Oh..... best regards...:D
 

servantofChrist

New member
HI FREAK!


That was a nice try at explaining how Abraham was justified, but I can see you need a little help with the subject of works. Allow me!

You cited Rom. 4:2-4, but you didn't cite Jas. 2:21-23, why didn't you? I suspect the reason you didn't cite the passage in James is because it directly contradicts your belief about faith and works. And, in keeping with your faulty approach in applying the scriptures, you simply ignore James' teaching on the subject, or give it lesser regard than Paul's, and your belief on faith/works is left intact.

Look at the 2 passages; first Rom. 4:2-5:

Rom. 4:2-5 -- "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.' Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness."

First of all, Paul's comments about "works" in Rom. 4 are set in the context of the OLD LAW (look back up only a few verses at 3:31). So we need to understand that the "works" Paul speaks of in Rom. 4, that did NOT justify Abraham, were as works of the Law - "Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law." (Rom. 3:31) Again, Paul was speaking of works as how they would be "counted" to Abraham as works done under "the law." The works themselves would not, and COULD not, save or justify him AS WORKS OF "THE LAW."

Now for the passage you left out, Freak! James meticulously explains how Abraham's works did in fact justify him! And there is NO contradiction between what Paul said and what James says, watch and you'll see why:

Jas. 2:21-23 -- "Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that FAITH WAS ACTIVE ALONG WITH HIS WORKS, AND FAITH WAS COMPLETED BY HIS WORKS; and the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness...."

What Paul was saying about Abraham's works was - the works themselves - when performed UNDER THE LAW - could not have saved or justified Abraham, as though by the works he did God OWED Abraham his salvation.

On the other hand, Abraham's life - and his faith - were continually characterized by his uncompromised obedience to God's every word... even to offering up his only son on an altar until God stayed his hand from taking his son's life. It was that obedience that made God so well-pleased with Abraham - and his WORKS that accompanied that OBEDIENCE were what JUSTIFIED Abraham before God --- because his WORKS were the PROOF and the EVIDENCE of his OBEDIENCE to God. That is EXACTLY what James is saying - "Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?"

Now watch this! You always portray faith and works as a dichotomy, mutually exclusive of each other. But that is NOT how the New Testament portrays saving faith, watch:

"By FAITH Abraham OBEYED when he was called to go out to a place...And he WENT OUT not knowing where he was going... "By FAITH Abraham, when he was tested, OFFERED UP Isaac...." (Heb. 11:8, 17)

Notice that the word of God equates "faith" with obedience - and exemplifies the WORKS of that obedience to show EXACTLY what KIND of faith God requires for that faith to be acceptable to Him!

What all this is saying is: One cannot be saved by works, but neither can one be saved without works! Because works are the PROOF of our OBEDIENCE to God and OBEDIENCE is what saves us - "And he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him" (Heb. 5:9)!
 

servantofChrist

New member
FREAK, ask yourself this question, please...


At the conclusion of the first gospel message ever preached, "about three thousand souls" were baptized in response to the Spirit's message spoken through Peter. (Acts 2:38-41)

WHY did they respond to the Holy Spirit's command to "Repent and be baptized," by being baptized, instead of responding the way you, and so many others do? Why didn't those 3,000 souls instead reply to Peter with something like this, "Peter, we will repent, but baptism is a work and we are not saved by works! I know you said to 'Repent and be baptized...for the forgiveness of your sins,' but you got it wrong. Baptism is not involved in the forgiveness of sins because baptism is a work and we are not saved by works. What you should have said is, 'Repent in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, then be baptized afterward (if you so desire).' "

Think about it, Freak.
 

servantofChrist

New member
To all of you who believe that REPENTANCE is necessary to be forgiven and saved, but BAPTISM is NOT because "baptism is a work and we are not saved by works," this one will put you in CHECKMATE ! This will drive the final nail in your coffin! Watch:

If you believe that baptism does not save a person because it is a "work," then explain how repentance is necessary in order to be saved - when the one who must repent is a drug addict or porn addict, who has been deeply involved in drugs or pornography FOR YEARS and has it ingrained deeply in their mind and heart.

This person is told that he/she MUST repent and TURN FROM this kind of thinking and living in order to follow Christ. Frequently, those who are steeped in years of drug or pornography addiction must get professional help/counseling FOR MANY WEEKS OR EVEN MONTHS to get rid of their addiction... think about that!

WHICH DO YOU THINK IS MORE WORK for such a person: THE ACT OF BEING BAPTIZED IN WATER, OR RIDDING THEMSELVES OF MANY YEARS OF HARD-CORE PORNOGRAPHY AND/OR DRUGS? The answer is obvious.

For many people, repentance is FAR MORE "WORK" than the mere act of being submerged under water for a few seconds and then coming back up out of the water. And you know what? ALL OF YOU KNOW THAT WHAT I'M SAYING IS TRUE!

Therefore, if baptism is not necessary for salvation because it is a work, and we are not saved by works, then to be honest and consistent, you must also tell the porno addict and drug addict that if there is ANY "work" involved in their repenting, of ridding themselves of the YEARS of drug or pornography addiction, then repentance will NOT save them, because "we are not saved by works!"

This is the conclusion that necessarily follows the belief that baptism does not save us because it is a work and we are not saved by works!

Think about it!
 

Kevin

New member
Wisdom, logic, and truth applied...

Wisdom, logic, and truth applied...

servantofChrist,

Your wisdom with the word of God is clearly evident. Excellent posts. :up:. I especially liked the one where you addressed justification by faith and works. Fabulous work! Francisco also pointed out Freak's error on this as well.
 

Kevin

New member
Hello, friend! Good to hear from you.

Hello, friend! Good to hear from you.

Apollos,

The NON-answers are typical Freaky-boy pedantics.

You, Francisco, SoC, and I have been seeing this on and off for how long now. He usually runs away and hides by now.

It is easy to understand Freak's position. It is the position that all in ERROR wallow in. Once they are truly faced with REASON and TRUTH, they realize they have no explanations and that they have no answers. They are too embarassed to admit they are wrong!

Avoidance of logic and questions, coupled with ignoring reason is the only "defense" they have.

I am not sure what "religion" Freak clings to, but even if he had the truth, I would want no part of it because of the truly sad tactics employed by him and his like.

You're so right. I'm just trying to hear from Freak in his own words why he will not answer the simple questions that are posed to him. Even if he doesn't answer, anybody who is watching this thread will see his silence. Red flags should go up all over the place when your faith can't answer simple questions like you and many others have posed to Freak. I'm sure the lurkers of this thread will see the red flags.

As I've said in the past, the truth has an answer for everything. Freak hasn't been doing much answering. He's been replying, but not answering. Unfortunate.
 

Francisco

New member
Yes s-o-C, that was well said. I would like to just add that any good work, whether it is repentence from a life of horrible sins, or if it's helping at the homeless shelter, is really God working in us, just as it was God working in us that brought us to our faith in Him to begin with.

God Bless,

Francisco
 

Freak

New member
What puzzles me about you guys (SoC, Francisco, Kevin, JustWorks, Apollos, etc) is this----you guys like to see salvation as this:

Jesus + water= salvation or Jesus + water + obedience = salvation

But from a Scriptural standpoint we see salvation as this:

He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."


Just Belief in Jesus=salvation
 
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Francisco

New member
That's not my formula at all Jay. It looks more like this:

Grace + Faith + Repentence + Carry Cross/Follow Christ + Endure to the End = Eternal Salvation

Your formula looks like:

Belief in Christ + Ignore/Disobey Commands + Ignoring Some Scripture x Disbelief God Can Use Substances He Created = Salvation According to a Few Misinterpretted Verses

God Bless,

Francisco
 
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