HopeofGlory
New member
Well said brother. They are ignorant of God's righteousness so they must establish their own.
The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
Well said brother. They are ignorant of God's righteousness so they must establish their own.
RightIdea
New member
Of course, don't get me wrong, brother... I highly recommend water baptism (by immersion... I was raised S. Baptist) because it is a powerful experience and a beautiful profession of faith. But my personal choice has been to convey an unmistakeable statement on the issue of legalistic baptism.
Kevin, you said:
You just answered your own question, Kevin. You keep contradicting yourself. You say we're not under the Law. You are no idiot, so you obviously believe in the passages I gave from Paul's letters. Yet, you turn around and say we are bound to follow the commandments of Christ. Commandments = Law.
NO righteousness can come from Law. This is exactly why dispensationalism clears up matters such as these. John's teachings are 100% mutually exclusive from Paul's. They cannot be reconciled by your "spiritualizing" the texts and twisting their meanings. Paul vehemently attacks any attempt to achieve righteousness through law. But Peter, James and John explicitly demand that a believer follow Jesus' laws. You can't have it both ways. You can't eat your cake and have it too. Who do you follow? The teachings of Jesus' earthly ministry (meant only for Israel, by Jesus' own words) and handed down to the Twelve? Or Jesus' teachings through Paul, after Israel is cut off?
Jesus through Peter? Or Jesus through Paul?
The answer, my friend, is Galatians 2:7.
Kevin
New member
RightIdea,
Just because something is a commandment does not automatically make it commandment of the Mosaic Law, which is what you keep throwing at me. The commanments of Christ are NOT part of the Mosaic Law.
1 John 3:23 states:
23) And this is His commandment: tha we should believe on the name of the His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us such COMMANDMENT.
Are you telling me that to believe in the name of the Son of God is a commandment of the Law??? NO! But yes, it's a commandment. Commmandment does NOT necessarily equal the Mosaic Law as you incorrectly assert. That verse shows that we are to love one another, as He (God) gave us commandment.
Well, there are people who will be thrown into HELL because the did not keep the commandment of loving one another. It can be found in Matt. 25:41-46, and this is concerning ALL nations, not just Jews (verse 32). In verses 41-46 we read:
41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
42) for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43) I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
44) Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
45) Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
46) And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
These people, of ALL nations, which includes the gentiles wich Paul preached to, were thrown into hell because of their lack of their good works towards fellow man. They were disobedient in the eyes of Chrirst. How is one considered obedient to Christ? If you keep HIS commandments. They did not love one another, which was commanded, for if they did, they would have administered to those in need! They did NOT keep Christ's commandments, and they were sent to hell because of it. Would you tell Christ that He is wrong for casting those people into Hell for their lack of disbedience? The certainly believed in Him, for they address Him as 'Lord', but obviously that wasn't enough.
And again, regarding CHRIST, not the Mosaic Law, John tells us we know Him IF we keep His commandments (1 John 2:4-6). That's HOW we know if we are IN Christ, IF we keep CHRIST's commandments! And the Apostle John was instructed that this goes for ALL NATIONS (Matt. 28:19-20), incuding the Gentiles which Paul preached to.
And your theory of "The teachings of Jesus' earthly ministry (meant only for Israel, by Jesus' own words) and handed down to the Twelve? Or Jesus' teachings through Paul, after Israel is cut off?" Just isn't true, after He was crucified.
After Christ was crucified, he told those same apostles to go out into ALL NATIONS, not just isreal, and preach the word, baptizing them, and teaching believers to observe all things He commanded of the Apostles (Matt 28:19-20). ALL NATIONS would certainly include the Gentile nations that Paul preached to. It's the SAME gospel preached to ALL nations, which kills your dispy theory.
Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him (Heb. 5:9). How can you obey Christ without keeping His commandments?!
Think about what you are saying... all we have to do is believe in Christ, but we don't have to do what He says.... Insane. God has ALWAYS expected obedience. Today is no different.
Just because something is a commandment does not automatically make it commandment of the Mosaic Law, which is what you keep throwing at me. The commanments of Christ are NOT part of the Mosaic Law.
1 John 3:23 states:
23) And this is His commandment: tha we should believe on the name of the His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us such COMMANDMENT.
Are you telling me that to believe in the name of the Son of God is a commandment of the Law??? NO! But yes, it's a commandment. Commmandment does NOT necessarily equal the Mosaic Law as you incorrectly assert. That verse shows that we are to love one another, as He (God) gave us commandment.
Well, there are people who will be thrown into HELL because the did not keep the commandment of loving one another. It can be found in Matt. 25:41-46, and this is concerning ALL nations, not just Jews (verse 32). In verses 41-46 we read:
41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
42) for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43) I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
44) Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
45) Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
46) And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
These people, of ALL nations, which includes the gentiles wich Paul preached to, were thrown into hell because of their lack of their good works towards fellow man. They were disobedient in the eyes of Chrirst. How is one considered obedient to Christ? If you keep HIS commandments. They did not love one another, which was commanded, for if they did, they would have administered to those in need! They did NOT keep Christ's commandments, and they were sent to hell because of it. Would you tell Christ that He is wrong for casting those people into Hell for their lack of disbedience? The certainly believed in Him, for they address Him as 'Lord', but obviously that wasn't enough.
And again, regarding CHRIST, not the Mosaic Law, John tells us we know Him IF we keep His commandments (1 John 2:4-6). That's HOW we know if we are IN Christ, IF we keep CHRIST's commandments! And the Apostle John was instructed that this goes for ALL NATIONS (Matt. 28:19-20), incuding the Gentiles which Paul preached to.
And your theory of "The teachings of Jesus' earthly ministry (meant only for Israel, by Jesus' own words) and handed down to the Twelve? Or Jesus' teachings through Paul, after Israel is cut off?" Just isn't true, after He was crucified.
After Christ was crucified, he told those same apostles to go out into ALL NATIONS, not just isreal, and preach the word, baptizing them, and teaching believers to observe all things He commanded of the Apostles (Matt 28:19-20). ALL NATIONS would certainly include the Gentile nations that Paul preached to. It's the SAME gospel preached to ALL nations, which kills your dispy theory.
Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him (Heb. 5:9). How can you obey Christ without keeping His commandments?!
Think about what you are saying... all we have to do is believe in Christ, but we don't have to do what He says.... Insane. God has ALWAYS expected obedience. Today is no different.
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yOU MUST SORT OUT THE WHEAT FROM THE CHAFF.
Though there are some who make it out a NESSERCARY WORK unto or FOR salavation are clearly wrong and has been adequately proved and established.
Yet we cannot ignore the clear message also that ALL true born again children of God SHOULD be baptised.
and should be a NATURAL progresion of conversion.
and seeing how it is so CLOSELY linked to our FOUNDATIONAL faith in Christ shows how it is in fact the FIRST RIGHTOUS work we do which is to God.
and a witness to teh world.
So we should not let the devil rob both us and God simply by the errors of BOTH CAMPS.
For if we wish to walk "PERFECTLY before the Lord" we must needs be BAPTISED as He was both by water and by the Spirit.
For is it not written?
"that His LIFE was the LIGHT of all men that cometh into the world?
and did He not say "as the FATHER sent Me so send I you"?
and "that which I see the FATHER do that do I also"?
Therefore even as He did that which He saw the FATHER DO so WE should do that which we SEE the SON DO.
AND SO FULLFILL THE LAW OF CHRIST.
Which is the law of a RIGHTOUS LIFE.
and NOT to ATTAIN rightousness.
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c.moore
New member
Originally posted by Freak
i think he is trying to use one of my quotes, but to clear up what I was saying to Kevin is that the problem we have is not excepting the free grace gift, and the understanding what grace is .
kevin and myself has agreed on the Infant baptism together , and it is an agreement because we both know A baby can`t do any works for salvation or that the baptism has no effects for them.
again this is proof that it is really the working or have ot do something to get salvation from God , and they don`t understand that we do because we are saved already by just accepting so we obey because we have already recieved, and it has to do with love , and not trying to get God to love us, and by the use of a perfect , up right baby is an good example of a born again christian who became perfect by the blood of Jesus alone on the cross, and we are perfect and righteous because of Christ like a Infant baby so works or water baptism really has no effect, but we do get wet, and we do understand about the water baptism and that something greater than a righteous baby can understand.
I hope this bring some understanding on this thread about water baptism using A baby as an example.
Think about this you all.
When we come into the Kingdom of God , born again fresh in the spirit of God , are we not babies???
so use this same idea with an Infant in the water baptism, with us new born christians, and you will find out works for righteousness, and obedience for salvation will be cancell and you will put the order of baptism in it``s right place praise God.
God bless
Freak
New member
Originally posted by c.moore
i think he is trying to use one of my quotes, but to clear up what I was saying to Kevin is that the problem we have is not excepting the free grace gift, and the understanding what grace is .
kevin and myself has agreed on the Infant baptism together , and it is an agreement because we both know A baby can`t do any works for salvation or that the baptism has no effects for them.
again this is proof that it is really the working or have ot do something to get salvation from God , and they don`t understand that we do because we are saved already by just accepting so we obey because we have already recieved, and it has to do with love , and not trying to get God to love us, and by the use of a perfect , up right baby is an good example of a born again christian who became perfect by the blood of Jesus alone on the cross, and we are perfect and righteous because of Christ like a Infant baby so works or water baptism really has no effect, but we do get wet, and we do understand about the water baptism and that something greater than a righteous baby can understand.
I hope this bring some understanding on this thread about water baptism using A baby as an example.
Think about this you all.
When we come into the Kingdom of God , born again fresh in the spirit of God , are we not babies???
so use this same idea with an Infant in the water baptism, with us new born christians, and you will find out works for righteousness, and obedience for salvation will be cancell and you will put the order of baptism in it``s right place praise God.
God bless
C. Moore-did you get out new design for your website? Elizabeth said she will help you when we arrive in Germany in a few weeks. Stay blessed.
Kevin
New member
Lunch break post...
Lunch break post...
c.moore,
I'm well aware of God's grace, and that it is freely given. But to whom is given to? God's grace is not automatically given to everbody without any condition, otherwise all would make it to heaven. Mark 16:16 covers who will recieve his grace quite well - he who believes and is baptized.
You should know that something is wrong with one's belief when a person looks for the conditions of salvation in the part of the verse that deals with condemnation, which is the last part of Mark 16:16 - he who doesn't believe is damned. Why not look at the clearly spoken requirements about what it takes to be saved, which is in the first part of the verse? But no, you would rather go to a part that is NOT talking about how to be saved and base your beliefs on salvation on that part of the verse, which doesn't even deal with how to be saved. Makes NO sense.
We both agree that an infant does not need to be baptized. But it doesn't have anything to do with doing works for salvation, but rather because the infant is born without sin, and even when the child later sins, that child is not held accountable in the eyes of God (Deut. 1:39).
Let me get this straight... you are trying to use infants, who do not understand the concept of sin and the need of a savior and trying to apply that to the conditions of salvation for an adult, who has the maturity to be convicted of his sins, knowing and understand right from wrong, and can realize that he IS in need of a Savior? God sees a difference between children and adults (Duet 1:39), you should too. You are trying to put them into one basket, which doesn't make sense. You are comparing apples to oranges here.
Christ commanded baptism. Baptism in His name is for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). Doing something that is commanded by God for the remission of sins is certainly required for salvation. Sure, God sent His Son to die, and His blood covers all our sins. But when God commands us to do something FOR the remission of sins BY Christ's blood, you want to say that it's not required for salvation.
I know we are saved by grace through faith - but what do you think prompts us to be baptized? OUR BELIEF. You hear the word and if you believe, you get baptized for the remission of sins. That fits RIGHT in with what Christ said is required of salvation in Mark 16:16 - belief and baptism! We have a perfect example of that in Acts 2:38. They hear the gospel, believed, and were baptized, thuse being saved.
If, upon the command of baptism in Acts 2:38, the Jews just sat there, would their faith save them? NO. Because they would be defying what was commanded by Christ for the remission of sins. God will not save the disobedient. Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him (Heb. 5:9). If your faith is true, obedience will follow. But faith by itself, is dead (James 2:14-26).
Look closely at James 2:14 - It asks the question that is debated over and over, does faith alone save a person -
14) What does it profit, my brethren, is somebody says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
Reading the next few verse, the answer is clear to that question - faith without works is dead. Faith alone does not save. Evidence of this can be found in Matt. 25: 41-46. They were damned to hell because of their lack of good works towards mankind.
Lunch break post...
c.moore,
I'm well aware of God's grace, and that it is freely given. But to whom is given to?
God's grace is not automatically given to everbody without any condition, otherwise all would make it to heaven. Mark 16:16 covers who will recieve his grace quite well - he who believes and is baptized.You should know that something is wrong with one's belief when a person looks for the conditions of salvation in the part of the verse that deals with condemnation, which is the last part of Mark 16:16 - he who doesn't believe is damned. Why not look at the clearly spoken requirements about what it takes to be saved, which is in the first part of the verse? But no, you would rather go to a part that is NOT talking about how to be saved and base your beliefs on salvation on that part of the verse, which doesn't even deal with how to be saved. Makes NO sense.
We both agree that an infant does not need to be baptized. But it doesn't have anything to do with doing works for salvation, but rather because the infant is born without sin, and even when the child later sins, that child is not held accountable in the eyes of God (Deut. 1:39).
Let me get this straight... you are trying to use infants, who do not understand the concept of sin and the need of a savior and trying to apply that to the conditions of salvation for an adult, who has the maturity to be convicted of his sins, knowing and understand right from wrong, and can realize that he IS in need of a Savior? God sees a difference between children and adults (Duet 1:39), you should too. You are trying to put them into one basket, which doesn't make sense. You are comparing apples to oranges here.
Christ commanded baptism. Baptism in His name is for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). Doing something that is commanded by God for the remission of sins is certainly required for salvation. Sure, God sent His Son to die, and His blood covers all our sins. But when God commands us to do something FOR the remission of sins BY Christ's blood, you want to say that it's not required for salvation.
I know we are saved by grace through faith - but what do you think prompts us to be baptized? OUR BELIEF. You hear the word and if you believe, you get baptized for the remission of sins. That fits RIGHT in with what Christ said is required of salvation in Mark 16:16 - belief and baptism! We have a perfect example of that in Acts 2:38. They hear the gospel, believed, and were baptized, thuse being saved.
If, upon the command of baptism in Acts 2:38, the Jews just sat there, would their faith save them? NO. Because they would be defying what was commanded by Christ for the remission of sins. God will not save the disobedient. Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him (Heb. 5:9). If your faith is true, obedience will follow. But faith by itself, is dead (James 2:14-26).
Look closely at James 2:14 - It asks the question that is debated over and over, does faith alone save a person -
14) What does it profit, my brethren, is somebody says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
Reading the next few verse, the answer is clear to that question - faith without works is dead. Faith alone does not save. Evidence of this can be found in Matt. 25: 41-46. They were damned to hell because of their lack of good works towards mankind.
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servantofChrist
New member
Is Jesus LORD or not? If you honestly believe He is, and you understand what is comprehended in that word "LORD," then your attitude toward Jesus' word will be - "Your slightest wish is my command."
The world and the entire universe was created through Jesus Christ, by the power of His very word (John 1:3; Col. 1:16; Heb. 11:3).
By that same Awesome power and authority each of us will stand before Him and be judged and then sentenced to spend eternity in one of two places, forever and ever without end (2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 20:11-15). Therefore, when He speaks we had better focus ALL of our attention on WHAT He says. And He has said the following:
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to OBEY EVERYTHING I have commanded you." (Matt. 28:19-20) And He had just COMMANDED BAPTISM!
Here it is, plain and simple: Jesus has commanded baptism for people "of all nations," and Heb. 5:9 says that He is "the source of eternal salvation to all who OBEY him."
If you believe that baptism is not necessary for salvation, then regardless of what you may think, you do NOT believe that "Jesus is LORD," pure and simple! It can be no other way.
The world and the entire universe was created through Jesus Christ, by the power of His very word (John 1:3; Col. 1:16; Heb. 11:3).
By that same Awesome power and authority each of us will stand before Him and be judged and then sentenced to spend eternity in one of two places, forever and ever without end (2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 20:11-15). Therefore, when He speaks we had better focus ALL of our attention on WHAT He says. And He has said the following:
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to OBEY EVERYTHING I have commanded you." (Matt. 28:19-20) And He had just COMMANDED BAPTISM!
Here it is, plain and simple: Jesus has commanded baptism for people "of all nations," and Heb. 5:9 says that He is "the source of eternal salvation to all who OBEY him."
If you believe that baptism is not necessary for salvation, then regardless of what you may think, you do NOT believe that "Jesus is LORD," pure and simple! It can be no other way.
RightIdea
New member
If you believe baptism is necessary for salvation, then regardless of what you may think, you ARE preaching a false gospel of salvation by works... pure and simple! It can be no other way. And Paul says such a person should be accursed.
That sure accomplished a lot, didn't it?
Interesting that you put the right amount of weight on Jesus' words... but utterly ignore who He was speaking to. Jews who were under a covenant with God that involved a combination of faith and works as an avenue to salvation. But He was NOT speaking to you and me, not to Gentiles. He said He came in His earthly ministry only for the lost sheep of Israel, and forbade the disciples from going to the Gentiles. It wasn't until after Israel was cut off for failing her election that God used Paul to go to the Gentiles directly rather than through Israel. And unlike James' teaching, Paul's gospel was one of faith without works. Which is exactly why Martin Luther wanted to tear the book of James out of the Bible.
Until you rightly divide the word of God, you will continue to be just as guilty of the Judaizers Paul so blatantly rebuked in his letter to the Galatians. As long as you preach the wrong message to the right people (or the right message to the wrong people), you will be condemned by Paul for preaching a false gospel.
Kevin
New member
Answer the evidence.
Answer the evidence.
RightIdea,
I've already given you evidence to show that your dispensation theory isn't true, yet I've hear nothing in response. Please answer my arguments. Here it is again:
Just because something is a commandment does not automatically make it commandment of the Mosaic Law, which is what you keep throwing at me. The commanments of Christ are NOT part of the Mosaic Law.
1 John 3:23 states:
23) And this is His commandment: tha we should believe on the name of the His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us such COMMANDMENT.
Are you telling me that to believe in the name of the Son of God is a commandment of the Law??? NO! But yes, it's a commandment. Commmandment does NOT necessarily equal the Mosaic Law as you incorrectly assert. That verse shows that we are to love one another, as He (God) gave us commandment.
Well, there are people who will be thrown into HELL because the did not keep the commandment of loving one another. It can be found in Matt. 25:41-46, and this is concerning ALL nations, not just Jews (verse 32). In verses 41-46 we read:
41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
42) for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43) I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
44) Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
45) Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
46) And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
These people, of ALL nations, which includes the gentiles wich Paul preached to, were thrown into hell because of their lack of their good works towards fellow man. They were disobedient in the eyes of Chrirst. How is one considered obedient to Christ? If you keep HIS commandments. They did not love one another, which was commanded, for if they did, they would have administered to those in need! They did NOT keep Christ's commandments, and they were sent to hell because of it. Would you tell Christ that He is wrong for casting those people into Hell for their lack of disbedience? The certainly believed in Him, for they address Him as 'Lord', but obviously that wasn't enough.
And again, regarding CHRIST, not the Mosaic Law, John tells us we know Him IF we keep His commandments (1 John 2:4-6). That's HOW we know if we are IN Christ, IF we keep CHRIST's commandments! And the Apostle John was instructed that this goes for ALL NATIONS (Matt. 28:19-20), incuding the Gentiles which Paul preached to.
And your theory of "The teachings of Jesus' earthly ministry (meant only for Israel, by Jesus' own words) and handed down to the Twelve? Or Jesus' teachings through Paul, after Israel is cut off?" Just isn't true, after He was crucified.
After Christ was crucified, he told those same apostles to go out into ALL NATIONS, not just isreal, and preach the word, baptizing them, and teaching believers to observe all things He commanded of the Apostles (Matt 28:19-20). ALL NATIONS would certainly include the Gentile nations that Paul preached to. It's the SAME gospel preached to ALL nations, which kills your dispy theory.
Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him (Heb. 5:9). How can you obey Christ without keeping His commandments?!
Think about what you are saying... all we have to do is believe in Christ, but we don't have to do what He says.... Insane. God has ALWAYS expected obedience. Today is no different.
Answer the evidence.
RightIdea,
I've already given you evidence to show that your dispensation theory isn't true, yet I've hear nothing in response. Please answer my arguments. Here it is again:
Just because something is a commandment does not automatically make it commandment of the Mosaic Law, which is what you keep throwing at me. The commanments of Christ are NOT part of the Mosaic Law.
1 John 3:23 states:
23) And this is His commandment: tha we should believe on the name of the His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us such COMMANDMENT.
Are you telling me that to believe in the name of the Son of God is a commandment of the Law??? NO! But yes, it's a commandment. Commmandment does NOT necessarily equal the Mosaic Law as you incorrectly assert. That verse shows that we are to love one another, as He (God) gave us commandment.
Well, there are people who will be thrown into HELL because the did not keep the commandment of loving one another. It can be found in Matt. 25:41-46, and this is concerning ALL nations, not just Jews (verse 32). In verses 41-46 we read:
41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
42) for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43) I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
44) Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
45) Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
46) And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
These people, of ALL nations, which includes the gentiles wich Paul preached to, were thrown into hell because of their lack of their good works towards fellow man. They were disobedient in the eyes of Chrirst. How is one considered obedient to Christ? If you keep HIS commandments. They did not love one another, which was commanded, for if they did, they would have administered to those in need! They did NOT keep Christ's commandments, and they were sent to hell because of it. Would you tell Christ that He is wrong for casting those people into Hell for their lack of disbedience? The certainly believed in Him, for they address Him as 'Lord', but obviously that wasn't enough.
And again, regarding CHRIST, not the Mosaic Law, John tells us we know Him IF we keep His commandments (1 John 2:4-6). That's HOW we know if we are IN Christ, IF we keep CHRIST's commandments! And the Apostle John was instructed that this goes for ALL NATIONS (Matt. 28:19-20), incuding the Gentiles which Paul preached to.
And your theory of "The teachings of Jesus' earthly ministry (meant only for Israel, by Jesus' own words) and handed down to the Twelve? Or Jesus' teachings through Paul, after Israel is cut off?" Just isn't true, after He was crucified.
After Christ was crucified, he told those same apostles to go out into ALL NATIONS, not just isreal, and preach the word, baptizing them, and teaching believers to observe all things He commanded of the Apostles (Matt 28:19-20). ALL NATIONS would certainly include the Gentile nations that Paul preached to. It's the SAME gospel preached to ALL nations, which kills your dispy theory.
Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him (Heb. 5:9). How can you obey Christ without keeping His commandments?!
Think about what you are saying... all we have to do is believe in Christ, but we don't have to do what He says.... Insane. God has ALWAYS expected obedience. Today is no different.
RightIdea
New member
It's a commandment, but it's not a law. Do you hear yourself? A commandment is, by definition, a law.
Paul said we are not under the law. He didn't simply say "under the law of Moses." No, he made it clear we are not under any law, because to say that any law is an avenue to salvation is to undo Christ's work on the cross.
You want to say we have to live up to laws, but you don't want to call it a law. But you are imprisoned by law nevertheless.
Paul said we are not under the law. He didn't simply say "under the law of Moses." No, he made it clear we are not under any law, because to say that any law is an avenue to salvation is to undo Christ's work on the cross.
You want to say we have to live up to laws, but you don't want to call it a law. But you are imprisoned by law nevertheless.
Kevin
New member
So we shouldn't do as our Lord commands us eh? Wrong.
So we shouldn't do as our Lord commands us eh? Wrong.
RightIdea,
I can't believe that you think that Paul is saying that we are under ANY law here. That is a gross misrepresentation of Paul's teachings. If we were truly under NO law, as you assert, we would then be in a state of lawlessness. What does the Bible say about lawlessness?
1 John 3:4
4) Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness.
The idea that Paul would go around teaching that we are not under ANY law at all, which means we are in state of lawlessness, which is SIN, is totally absurd.
Do you really think that Paul would go around and teach people about Christ, and yet tell them that they don't have to obey Him? I can hear it now... "Yeah, here's the One who can save your soul, but you don't have to do what He says." Paul's smarter than that, and so are you.
Tell me, do you partake of the Eucharist? If you do, why do you think that is? Answer: becuase Christ commanded that we do so. It was commanded in Luke 22:19, and Christ told the apostles in the Great Commission (Matt. 28: 19-20) to teach new disciples to observe all things that He commanded the apsotles, which certainly includes the Eucharist. That's why the Eucharist is observed, because Christ commanded it! If you partake of it, your are obeying a COMMANDMENT.
Did Paul support this commandment of the Eucharist? You bet he did. In fact, Paul, in 1 Cor. 23-29 rebuked the Corinthians for partaking of the Eucharist in an improper manner. Verse 23 starts out saying "For I received from the Lord that which I also deliver to you...". What did Paul receive? A Commandment from the Lord to eat of His body and drink of His blood.
Why would Paul go to so much trouble rebuking the Corinthians for improperly partaking of the Lord's Supper? According to your interpretation of Pauls teachings, Paul should have told them that it's not even necessary to partake of it, even though it was commanded by the Lord.
And you STILL dodge my questions. Will you ever address them?
1 John 3:23 states:
23) And this is His commandment: tha we should believe on the name of the His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us such COMMANDMENT.
Are we to ignore the "commandment" of believing on the name o the Son of God? After all, it's a "commandment" and to you "commandment=law" and we aren't under ANY law.
So are we not to believe on the name of the Son of God, as we are COMMANDED to do so?
Are we to love one another, as Christ gave such COMMANDMENT? Well, are we? Paul certainly agreed with this commandment:
Rom 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery,Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Looks like Paul and John agree here. Why? Because it was commanded by Christ that we are to love one another (1 John 3:23).
And you never did address what I said earlier:
After Christ was crucified, he told those same apostles to go out into ALL NATIONS, not just isreal, and preach the word, baptizing them, and teaching believers to observe all things He commanded of the Apostles (Matt 28:19-20). ALL NATIONS would certainly include the Gentile nations that Paul preached to. It's the SAME gospel preached to ALL nations, which kills your dispy theory.
So we shouldn't do as our Lord commands us eh? Wrong.
RightIdea,
I can't believe that you think that Paul is saying that we are under ANY law here. That is a gross misrepresentation of Paul's teachings. If we were truly under NO law, as you assert, we would then be in a state of lawlessness. What does the Bible say about lawlessness?
1 John 3:4
4) Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness.
The idea that Paul would go around teaching that we are not under ANY law at all, which means we are in state of lawlessness, which is SIN, is totally absurd.
Do you really think that Paul would go around and teach people about Christ, and yet tell them that they don't have to obey Him? I can hear it now... "Yeah, here's the One who can save your soul, but you don't have to do what He says." Paul's smarter than that, and so are you.
Tell me, do you partake of the Eucharist? If you do, why do you think that is? Answer: becuase Christ commanded that we do so. It was commanded in Luke 22:19, and Christ told the apostles in the Great Commission (Matt. 28: 19-20) to teach new disciples to observe all things that He commanded the apsotles, which certainly includes the Eucharist. That's why the Eucharist is observed, because Christ commanded it! If you partake of it, your are obeying a COMMANDMENT.
Did Paul support this commandment of the Eucharist? You bet he did. In fact, Paul, in 1 Cor. 23-29 rebuked the Corinthians for partaking of the Eucharist in an improper manner. Verse 23 starts out saying "For I received from the Lord that which I also deliver to you...". What did Paul receive? A Commandment from the Lord to eat of His body and drink of His blood.
Why would Paul go to so much trouble rebuking the Corinthians for improperly partaking of the Lord's Supper? According to your interpretation of Pauls teachings, Paul should have told them that it's not even necessary to partake of it, even though it was commanded by the Lord.
And you STILL dodge my questions. Will you ever address them?
1 John 3:23 states:
23) And this is His commandment: tha we should believe on the name of the His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us such COMMANDMENT.
Are we to ignore the "commandment" of believing on the name o the Son of God? After all, it's a "commandment" and to you "commandment=law" and we aren't under ANY law.
So are we not to believe on the name of the Son of God, as we are COMMANDED to do so?
Are we to love one another, as Christ gave such COMMANDMENT? Well, are we? Paul certainly agreed with this commandment:
Rom 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery,Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Looks like Paul and John agree here. Why? Because it was commanded by Christ that we are to love one another (1 John 3:23).
And you never did address what I said earlier:
After Christ was crucified, he told those same apostles to go out into ALL NATIONS, not just isreal, and preach the word, baptizing them, and teaching believers to observe all things He commanded of the Apostles (Matt 28:19-20). ALL NATIONS would certainly include the Gentile nations that Paul preached to. It's the SAME gospel preached to ALL nations, which kills your dispy theory.
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