Sonnet
New member
If faith were work then Romans 4:1-4 would not have been written. I challenged you to exegete it bu you just run to Matthew 23:23 which refers to 'faithfulness' and not 'faith'.
The Gospel Verses the Catholic Church
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
If faith were work then Romans 4:1-4 would not have been written. I challenged you to exegete it bu you just run to Matthew 23:23 which refers to 'faithfulness' and not 'faith'.
No problem.
In fact I answered this point before to someone else. I have no issue with repeating it.
I am all for testing spirits and I am all for criticising other people's false beliefs. But if you read my criticism more carefully and the post I was criticising, you will see that the poster was actually condemnig Catholics as enemies of the Gospel. This is what I object to. It doesn't help. I am sure that some individual Catholics are enemies of the Gospel, just as I am sure some individual Calvinists are. But that doesn't mean that all Catholics are. This is a prejudice that must be overcome if we are to make progress with the truth.
Because, as Paul says, 'Why do you judge others when you are the ones committing the very things you judge others for?'
Sonnet
New member
I agree that not all are enemies.
I have known many wonderful Catholic Christians. And I was a Catholic myself. I put a lot of it down to xenophobia: Catholics usually live within a sub-culture. They are quite different to others in their local host cultures. I think a lot of protestant Christians see the great cultural differences and immediately jump to the conclusion that they are faith differences. We should remember that it is Christ who is the judge of Christians, not us.
Let's be clear: the veneration of statues is fundamentally no different to the worship of the pulpit. And the veneration of Mary is no different to the worship of the Bible. A protestant church may be absent of statues or other icons but this doesn't stop the people worshipping the pulpit. Look how they stand when the minister walks up the steps to the platform. Look how all the sermons are recorded for posterity. Look how the pulpit forms the central architectural feature in the church. See how it get elevated above the congregation. Or look how the minister parades down the aisle carrying the cross or some other token. And then see how everything hinges around 'The Word of God', i.e. the Bible. Stated to be God's perfect revelation to man. The Bible does not speak of itself in this way at all. This is an invention. It is yet another form of idol worship.
So, we should look at ourselves before we judge others. God is looking at the heart, not on whether your church has a raised pulpit or statues of Mary.
I will have to admit that there are some things in the Protestant religion that are similar to the Catholic religion, but that does not make them right.
The "Historical Gospel" is almost lost due to religion. Paul said, "THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH" not by rules, laws or religion. Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus, we have been reconciled unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19, No religion needed.
OK, thank you, Robert. We seem to be making some progress.
Now that you can admit that some things in the protestant religion are similar to the Catholic, can you also admit that
a) Some people in the protestant religion (remember you said that no religion is needed) do live by faith despite the fact that they have a religion and
b) that some people in the Catholic religion also live by faith?
I don't think that you understand what it means to live by faith.
Those that are living by faith don't have or practice a religion. They live by faith in the work and the person of Jesus Christ, plus nothing. If you have a religion, then you will probably have faith in your religion. That is not faith in Christ.
What a perversion of scripture. Paul's statement is from Habakkuk 2:4. In Habakkuk's day there were rules, laws and religion.
Paul never spoke against the law of the Jews, why do you? (Acts 25:8)
Really? Paul said, "And the commandment which was ordained to life, I found to be of death" Romans 7:10. The law brings death, but the spirit gives life.
Yes, Paul sinned against the commandment which was ordained to life and what Paul realized is that life is by grace, not by law.
Some day you may realize the same thing and quit talking about a law (any law) that cannot save.
So let me understand, to prove that you are not prejudiced against Catholics, you would say that none of the protestants are saved - because they are in a religion?
You interjected 'probably' above. Does that mean that there is a probability that some Catholics do have faith? You don't seem to be willing to be clear on this!
Do you have a religion?
No, I don't have a religion. I am a Gospel believing Christian.
Have you noticed that none of the apostles taught or followed a religion.
The only religion in the New Testament was the religion of the Pharisees. To see what Jesus thought about them read Matthew 23.
As far as I am concerned all religions are basically anti-Gospel and may be anti-Christ.
Saving faith is a faith that is trusting in the work and the person of Jesus Christ, plus nothing.
Paul also said that those who are of the law are under a curse. Galatians 3:10.
You are still not answering my question: is there a probability that some Catholics or protestants have saving faith?
Also, you tell us that none of the apostles taught a religion. Well, you are wrong about that:
James 1:26-27 NASB.
26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
which shows that your position is unbiblical.
fishrovmen
Active member
Pate is against almost everything but his uniquely bizarre and unbiblical and even illogical views