What is confusing about God adopting us and making us alive in Christ?
Do you imagine you were dead and somehow chose God?
The Gospel Verses Predestination
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Do you imagine you were dead and somehow chose God?
I went over this.
God makes us alive in Christ so that we are able to hear. God then gifts us faith to believe that He has adopted us.
There is no contradiction between Romans 10 and Ephesians 2.
Why is such a simple thing so hard for you? Why do you fight against God's authority over your salvation?
I abhor the 'Social club mentality' that states: "Only a few ELECT individuals are chosen." Christ died for ALL of mankind. Anyone who hears the Gospel and places their faith totally in Christ and His work on the cross can become a member of the 'Body of Christ.' You teach Calvinism, pure and simple.
Rosenritter
New member
How you would answer this question... is a rapist strong enough to get what he wills?
God is certainly strong enough to make the most wicked man or angel immortal and give them great powers. He is loving enough and wise enough to know this is not in his interests, for the good of his children and the rest of creation.
What God ultimately wants is for everyone to come to know him in an understanding of Holy love. That is his will. That's not going to happen, God knows that as he created us some of us will choose evil over good.
If you view the rapist as having true will and power, I don't think you will understand the answer. Love cannot force someone else to understand that love.
Rosenritter
New member
God made them sin?
Rosenritter
New member
Pelagians? You can stop the racial slurs.I don't think any of us are even from Pelagia.
What an odd question. No.
God is good. God cannot go against His own nature.
If this were God's will then it would happen. Your assertion is therefore wrong.
God know that no one seeks after God, not even one. (Read Romans 3...again...)
Indeed, God does not force you or me to understand Him. (You and I are lawbreakers just like the rapist in your question. We are no better and no worse. We are corrupt in our very nature.)
Since God does not force us to know Him, God must choose to make us alive.
God looks upon your vile, corrupt, pathetic, dead in your trespasses and sins, soul and He, in love, chooses to make you righteous in His presence through and in Christ Jesus. That's called grace. Unmerited favor.
If you cannot understand what I am saying and you think think it is foolishness, then you are still dead in your trespasses and sins. You have no part of being in Christ. You are an illegitimate child whom God does not know.
May God make you alive in Christ by His gracious and loving will.
Pelagius taught what you believe. You are a Pelagian.
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/pelagian-controversy/
You stumble over every stumbling block .
God draws , He calls , He doesn't make anyone do anything . Only Satan does that
The " hearing " in Rom. 10 :17 is a courtroom hearing . Rom 10 :17 should read , Faith comes by " A " hearing , " A " hearing by the word of God .(Christ) .
And the English word believe is a mistranslation of the Greek word pisteuo .
Pisteuo is a personal surrender to Him , and a life inspired by such surrender . A verb , something we must choose to do , a response to the Father's call .
You really need to regroup . Is your passion to know Christ better , or just to be right ?
Rosenritter
New member
Where is it written, that God gets everything that he wills? To the contrary, I've already given you one example where God clearly did not get what he willed. I noticed that you declined to respond to that example.
Clearly you misunderstand, as we are told in many places that we should both seek the Lord and that people have sought the LORD.
Isaiah 55:6-7 KJV
(6) Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
(7) Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
In your enthusiasm you forgot to read your passage in context, as it speaks not as an absolute authority on the individual, but as concerning whether the Jew is superior to the Gentile.
2 Chronicles 15:3-4 KJV
(3) Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law.
(4) But when they in their trouble did turn unto the LORD God of Israel, and sought him, he was found of them.
So, unless I believe that God really does delight in the death of the wicked man, that he does not will that all men come to repentance, and that he does not desire that all men come to a knowledge of the truth, that he really did not love the world enough to atone for every man woman and child, that I have no place in Christ? Wow. May I ask by what sign or miracle you show that you now speak for the Lord in the place of scripture?
Mark 10:21 KJV
(21) Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
1. Did Jesus want for this man to "come, take up the cross, and follow" him?
2. Did this man actually "come, take up the cross" and follow Jesus?
3. Did Jesus get what he wanted?
4. Was Jesus God?
5. Did Jesus love this man?
6. Was the Son of God sent into this world to die for the sins of those God loved?
If you view love as something that is 'wasted" if it is not returned, then you don't understand love. Love isn't love if it's only given when you are guaranteed to get a "return" on your investment in each time. True love lays down its life, gives of itself, is patient, kind, longsuffering... and sometimes is not returned.
You abhor God's word then and you embrace universalism.
Only those whom God makes alive in Christ can hear and believe. The Bible tells us that the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. God will make all whom He chooses to be members of His body. God doesn't leave it up to random chance. He knew before the foundation of the world who would believe.
I teach what the Bible says.
Why do you hate what God says in the Bible. Why do you hate the fact that you, a slave to sin, cannot set yourself free, but God must make you free? Why do you, a corrupt criminal, think that God owes you anything? How is it that you dare to demand that He save the entire, vile and corrupt, world?
Rosenritter
New member
Where is it written that God's will is subservient to man's will?
Romans 9
[20]No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”
Remind me of the scripture that says God did not get what He willed.
[/QUOTE]
Clearly you misunderstand, as we are told in many places that we should both seek the Lord and that people have sought the LORD.
Isaiah 55:6-7 KJV
(6) Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
(7) Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. [/QUOTE]
Question: Is Israel the chosen of God or not? Was Isaiah writing to the entire world or to Israel?
Here you go. No one seeks God. Only those who have faith can believe. Faith is only for those who can hear. Dead men cannot hear.
Romans 3:9-30
[9]Well then, should we conclude that we Jews are better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin.
[10]As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous— not even one.
[11]No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God.
[12]All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one.”
[13]“Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave. Their tongues are filled with lies.” “Snake venom drips from their lips.”
[14]“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
[15]“They rush to commit murder.
[16]Destruction and misery always follow them.
[17]They don’t know where to find peace.”
[18]“They have no fear of God at all.”
[19]Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God.
[20]For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.
[21]But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago.
[22]We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.
[23]For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard.
[24]Yet God freely and graciously declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.
[25]For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past,
[26]for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.
[27]Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith.
[28]So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.
[29]After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is.
[30]There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.
Another passage written to Israel. Remind me...was Israel chosen by God?
May I ask how you can butcher the interpretation of God's word so badly?
I let God's word speak for itself.
Ephesians 1:1-23
[1]This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus.I am writing to God’s holy people in Ephesus, who are faithful followers of Christ Jesus.
[2]May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
[3]All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ.
[4]Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.
[5]God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.
[6]So we praise God for the glorious grace he has poured out on us who belong to his dear Son.
[7]He is so rich in kindness and grace that he purchased our freedom with the blood of his Son and forgave our sins.
[8]He has showered his kindness on us, along with all wisdom and understanding.
[9]God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure.
[10]And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth.
[11]Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.
[12]God’s purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God.
[13]And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.
[14]The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.
[15]Ever since I first heard of your strong faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for God’s people everywhere,
[16]I have not stopped thanking God for you. I pray for you constantly,
[17]asking God, the glorious Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, to give you spiritual wisdom and insight so that you might grow in your knowledge of God.
[18]I pray that your hearts will be flooded with light so that you can understand the confident hope he has given to those he called—his holy people who are his rich and glorious inheritance.
[19]I also pray that you will understand the incredible greatness of God’s power for us who believe him. This is the same mighty power
[20]that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms.
[21]Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or leader or anything else—not only in this world but also in the world to come.
[22]God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church.
[23]And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself.
Ephesians 2:1-22
[1]Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins.
[2]You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.
[3]All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.
[4]But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much,
[5]that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)
[6]For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.
[7]So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.
[8]God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
[9]Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.
[10]For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.
[11]Don’t forget that you Gentiles used to be outsiders. You were called “uncircumcised heathens” by the Jews, who were proud of their circumcision, even though it affected only their bodies and not their hearts.
[12]In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel, and you did not know the covenant promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope.
[13]But now you have been united with Christ Jesus. Once you were far away from God, but now you have been brought near to him through the blood of Christ.
[14]For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us.
[15]He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups.
[16]Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross, and our hostility toward each other was put to death.
[17]He brought this Good News of peace to you Gentiles who were far away from him, and peace to the Jews who were near.
[18]Now all of us can come to the Father through the same Holy Spirit because of what Christ has done for us.
[19]So now you Gentiles are no longer strangers and foreigners. You are citizens along with all of God’s holy people. You are members of God’s family.
[20]Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself.
[21]We are carefully joined together in him, becoming a holy temple for the Lord.
[22]Through him you Gentiles are also being made part of this dwelling where God lives by his Spirit.
If you wish to follow a pony so be it. That's on you.
Rosenritter
New member
[MENTION=20836]MennoSota[/MENTION], Luke 13:34 (that you neglected to notice before) and Mark 10:21 (which you just blithely skipped past just now) make two different examples. If you read and listened a little more and lightened up on the spam hammer they might not miss your attention.
Read the context of Luke 13 and note that it has nothing to do with free-will or God's inability to accomplish what He wills.
Luke 13:22-35
[22]Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he went, always pressing on toward Jerusalem.
[23]Someone asked him, “Lord, will only a few be saved?”He replied,
[24]“Work hard to enter the narrow door to God’s Kingdom, for many will try to enter but will fail.
[25]When the master of the house has locked the door, it will be too late. You will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Lord, open the door for us!’ But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
[26]Then you will say, ‘But we ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
[27]And he will reply, ‘I tell you, I don’t know you or where you come from. Get away from me, all you who do evil.’
[28]“There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, for you will see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God, but you will be thrown out.
[29]And people will come from all over the world—from east and west, north and south—to take their places in the Kingdom of God.
[30]And note this: Some who seem least important now will be the greatest then, and some who are the greatest now will be least important then.”
[31]At that time some Pharisees said to him, “Get away from here if you want to live! Herod Antipas wants to kill you!”
[32]Jesus replied, “Go tell that fox that I will keep on casting out demons and healing people today and tomorrow; and the third day I will accomplish my purpose.
[33]Yes, today, tomorrow, and the next day I must proceed on my way. For it wouldn’t do for a prophet of God to be killed except in Jerusalem!
[34]“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.
[35]And now, look, your house is abandoned. And you will never see me again until you say, ‘Blessings on the one who comes in the name of the lord!’”
Matthew 10 is Jesus commissioning of his disciples when he sends them out. What are you getting at?
Matthew 10:5-42
[5]Jesus sent out the twelve apostles with these instructions: “Don’t go to the Gentiles or the Samaritans,
[6]but only to the people of Israel—God’s lost sheep.
[7]Go and announce to them that the Kingdom of Heaven is near.
[8]Heal the sick, raise the dead, cure those with leprosy, and cast out demons. Give as freely as you have received!
[9]“Don’t take any money in your money belts—no gold, silver, or even copper coins.
[10]Don’t carry a traveler’s bag with a change of clothes and sandals or even a walking stick. Don’t hesitate to accept hospitality, because those who work deserve to be fed.
[11]“Whenever you enter a city or village, search for a worthy person and stay in his home until you leave town.
[12]When you enter the home, give it your blessing.
[13]If it turns out to be a worthy home, let your blessing stand; if it is not, take back the blessing.
[14]If any household or town refuses to welcome you or listen to your message, shake its dust from your feet as you leave.
[15]I tell you the truth, the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah will be better off than such a town on the judgment day.
[16]“Look, I am sending you out as sheep among wolves. So be as shrewd as snakes and harmless as doves.
[17]But beware! For you will be handed over to the courts and will be flogged with whips in the synagogues.
[18]You will stand trial before governors and kings because you are my followers. But this will be your opportunity to tell the rulers and other unbelievers about me.
[19]When you are arrested, don’t worry about how to respond or what to say. God will give you the right words at the right time.
[20]For it is not you who will be speaking—it will be the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
[21]“A brother will betray his brother to death, a father will betray his own child, and children will rebel against their parents and cause them to be killed.
[22]And all nations will hate you because you are my followers. But everyone who endures to the end will be saved.
[23]When you are persecuted in one town, flee to the next. I tell you the truth, the Son of Man will return before you have reached all the towns of Israel.
[24]“Students are not greater than their teacher, and slaves are not greater than their master.
[25]Students are to be like their teacher, and slaves are to be like their master. And since I, the master of the household, have been called the prince of demons, the members of my household will be called by even worse names!
[26]“But don’t be afraid of those who threaten you. For the time is coming when everything that is covered will be revealed, and all that is secret will be made known to all.
[27]What I tell you now in the darkness, shout abroad when daybreak comes. What I whisper in your ear, shout from the housetops for all to hear!
[28]“Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
[29]What is the price of two sparrows—one copper coin? But not a single sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it.
[30]And the very hairs on your head are all numbered.
[31]So don’t be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows.
[32]“Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.
[33]But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven.
[34]“Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword.
[35]‘I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
[36]Your enemies will be right in your own household!’
[37]“If you love your father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine; or if you love your son or daughter more than me, you are not worthy of being mine.
[38]If you refuse to take up your cross and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine.
[39]If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give up your life for me, you will find it.
[40]“Anyone who receives you receives me, and anyone who receives me receives the Father who sent me.
[41]If you receive a prophet as one who speaks for God, you will be given the same reward as a prophet. And if you receive righteous people because of their righteousness, you will be given a reward like theirs.
[42]And if you give even a cup of cold water to one of the least of my followers, you will surely be rewarded.”
beloved57
Well-known member
You deny the Gospel teaching that sinners Christ shed His Blood for are lost!
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Isaiah said, "Who has believed our report?" and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?"
God appointed prophets, wise men, apostles, to make known to the world the great works of his Son Jesus Christ.
Before Jesus ascended back into heaven he charged the apostles to... "Go into the world and preach the Gospel to every creature" Mark 16:15.
People are saved and come to Christ through the preaching of the Gospel. Paul wrote,
"For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it" Hebrews 4:2.
The "them" were probably law keeping Jews. Today it would be Calvinist, Catholics and other religious people. They hear, but they cannot believe. Why is that? The reason is that they have made their religion their Jesus. They like the Jesus that they have embraced because it is after their own image and after their own likeness. Can it be when God gave the commandments to Moses he knew that people would create their own religions, that are after their own likeness.
"Thou shalt not have no other Gods before me" Exodus 20:3.
Maybe this is why Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man can come to the Father but by me" John 14:6.
Calvinism, Catholicism, religion, is another way or another God. It most certainly is another Gospel. Galatians 1:6-8.
beloved57
Well-known member
You reject predestination, you reject the saving merit of Christ for them He died, thats being in unbelief !