Good post.
The Gospel Verses Predestination
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Good post.
If you have a reasonable complaint and can PROVE it, report me to the Woodshed or mind your own business.
beloved57
Well-known member
You dont believe the Gospel because you believe sinners Christ died for are lost.
Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
You have 0 scripture to prove that people are saved before they hear the Gospel.
On the day of Pentecost thousands of Jews heard Peter's Gospel and were saved. The scripture plainly says...
"Then they gladly received his word (Peter's Gospel) were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls" Acts 2:41.
And then the next day...
Howbeit many of them which hear the word (Peter's Gospel) believed; and the number was about five thousand" Acts 4:4.
Which once again proves that...
"That faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (The Gospel) Romans 10:17.
There is nothing wrong with the Bible, but there is a lot wrong with Calvinism.
beloved57
Well-known member
You have been showed plenty of scripture and have rejected them in unbelief and deny Jesus saves them He died for.
Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
This is a Forum. You are supposed to try and refute me with scripture. Where is your scripture? Can it be there is no scripture to refute what I post, just your stupid little meaningless remarks.
The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.
"And he is a propitiation for our sins: and not ours only, but also FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2.
Of all of the false religions, Calvinism is the easiest of all to refute with scripture.
beloved57
Well-known member
You have been showed scripture that refutes your unbelief.. You deny predestination to life eternal and you deny the saving death of Christ teaching sinners Christ died for are lost.
Rosenritter
New member
I think I added plenty, which is why I stopped there.
The typical Calvinist argument seems to be "I found the word predestined in the bible four times" without mentioning that "predestined" has to be redefined in order to make their world-view fit, then wonders why the rest of the world doesn't "believe the scriptures" and buy into the argument. As evidenced in the post that I replied to, where the author seemed to think that their meme was a "answers everything" argument.
Here, I'll use those words in sentences with normal English as illustration.
Bullets are predestined to be fired from a gun.
The representatives we elected did not deliver as we had hoped.
Or to put this another way, one may have a determined destiny, but that does not guarantee that one fulfills that destiny, and one may be selected for a specific purpose, but that does not mean that they will continue or fulfill that purpose. Are all manufactured bullets fired from a gun? No, they aren't... they do not all fulfill their destiny.
I imagine all sorts of potential arguments of the sort that defend or argue the necessity of the Calvinist redefinition of those words, but that would exactly prove this (specific) point, and that point is that the use or existence of those words themselves do nothing to assert Calvinism or the refutation (integral assumption) of the entire scriptures that God created men and angels with free will.
How is predestined used in the Bible?
How is election used in the Bible?
I'm trying to simplify this for you. You seem to be struggling.
Rosenritter
New member
After criticizing the former for "adding nothing" that is your style of response? You added no content.
Here's an example, from Ephesians 1:5
"Having predestinated us unto the adopotion of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."
Mankind was predestinated unto eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord. We know this from passages such as John 3:16 (God so loved the world) and 2 Peter 3:9 (He is not willing that any should perish.) Yet (unless you are a Universalist) we acknowledge that not all men shall inherit eternal life. We are predestinated unto adoption, but we do not all fulfill our destiny.The prodigal son was predestinated unto an inheritance of the estate... yet he lost it all through riotous living, and would have perished had he not chosen to return.
These words speak normally for themselves in the context of the whole scripture without requiring a Calvinist filter to redefine them.
Paul is writing specifically to the Christians in the city of Ephesus. This is why he says "us" in verse 5. He would have said "the entire world" if he meant the entire world. But, he didn't. He was specifically targeting those in Ephesus who had been chosen by God to adoption by predestination.
Jesus tells us that not one person whom the Father has given him will be lost.
Thus, your assertion that all mankind was predestined, but men can override the will of God is utter rubbish. You are calling Jesus a liar.
The prodigal son was...wait for it...already a chosen one. He was not a servant or a nobody who wandered on the property. There are two sons (both members of Israel). The one son left and came back repentant. The other son was mad because the Father welcomed back the formerly rebellious son. He believed he had done all the Father had demanded and felt the Father had not honored him for his obedience. The two are an example of Israel, the very people Jesus was talking to. Learn from this parable because it speaks volumes to the church and the problems of both sin and self-righteousness in the local congregation.
Rosenritter
New member
.... and, as predicted, your response was all about attempting to justify why your Calvinist-specific definition should be substituted over the normal one. Point is demonstrated and proved, that the presence of these terms do not in themselves require or justify Calvinism. That is why the meme response was (in your language) "Rubbish."
So if you can move past that, I suppose if you wanted, you could argue application...
Considering that it is stated quite clearly that God is not willing that any should perish, Id' say you're the one in the pickle here. Perhaps you might be able to continue by redefining "any" and "all" to mean only "some" and "elect?"
So if you can move past that, I suppose if you wanted, you could argue application...
Considering that it is stated quite clearly that God is not willing that any should perish, Id' say you're the one in the pickle here. Perhaps you might be able to continue by redefining "any" and "all" to mean only "some" and "elect?"
My response is directly to your scripture. Where did I ever bring up Calvin?
Your prejudice overwhelms your ability to look at the passages.
It is fascinating to see how hateful and prejudiced people are and how they use Calvin as an excuse for their hatefulness. You fit that prejudism.
I find it rather humorous that you deny your beliefs are connected to Calvinism, yet, your beliefs ARE connected to Calvin's beliefs. :doh:
I don't deny that Calvin observed similarly to me, as did Augustine and many, many, other saints. Do you deny that your beliefs come from Pelagian, Arminius, Finney and others?
The "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ is what interprets the Christian beliefs. In the Gospel Jesus comes into the world as God's new Adam and our new humanity. His mission as our representative is to do for us that which we cannot do for ourselves because we are sinners. By his righteous sinless life he fulfills God's holy law, Matthew 5:18. He does this in our name and on our behalf. It is this life that was lived for our justification, Romans 3:26. By his death on the cross he defeated sin, death and the devil. Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus we have been, justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. Jesus has reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. We now stand before God's holy court as perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.
This is where are beliefs come from.
The Gospel (Paul's Gospel) was introduced to me in 1962. My beliefs come from the Bible. I have placed my faith in "The Gospel of the grace of God" as Paul called it. On a very hot, smoggy day in 1962, I went to my Mom and asked her, "Are we going to go to Hell?" Mind you, I was eleven years old and we weren't a church-going family at the time. She answered: "Probably." Within mere days of asking that question, we moved into an apartment complex where my Sister befriended a neighbor girl. The girl's Father happened to be an assistant Pastor of a Christian church that was meeting at 'The Church of Reflections' at Knotts Berry Farm at the time. The girls family introduced us to the Gospel and my family subsequently became a part of the 'Body of Christ' and attended that church thereafter. It was a non-denominational, Christ-centered, Bible-believing Christian church. I believe it was God who arranged that entire scenario. That was over 50 years ago and I still cling to that same Gospel, the ONLY Gospel.
Thanks. You're a follower of Pelagian and Charles Finney. Since those two came before you and you have their beliefs, I can now call you a Pelagian.
Name calling is one of your BEST attributes anyway.
No, Grosnick's faith is in Jesus Christ and his Gospel, not in some doctrine or religion that was conceived by a man. This is where you have gone wrong. You want to believe in the doctrines of men. The whole Bible is about Jesus Christ and his Gospel. The Gospel is the means by which we are saved, justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. We who are saved by Christ don't need a religion. We have entered into his rest, Hebrews 4:10. You are not there, instead you are trusting that you have been predestinated. Why would God predestinate you to salvation when you dishonor him and his Son Jesus Christ with your false doctrine?