The Gospel Verses Predestination

God's Truth

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Circumcision was the sign and seal that a person did the righteous work of taking care of their sin nature by cleaning themselves, by doing the purification/ceremonial works of the law, so that one could be called a child of God.

The Gentiles did not do those things and were without God in the world.

Whenever you read that Paul says 'not of works', it is about those works of the law that used to qualify a person as a child of God---the purification/ceremonial works.

Paul says it is no more by those works. He is not saying it is no longer by obedience.
 

Robert Pate

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Circumcision was the sign and seal that a person did the righteous work of taking care of their sin nature by cleaning themselves, by doing the purification/ceremonial works of the law, so that one could be called a child of God.

The Gentiles did not do those things and were without God in the world.

Whenever you read that Paul says 'not of works', it is about those works of the law that used to qualify a person as a child of God---the purification/ceremonial works.

Paul says it is no more by those works. He is not saying it is no longer by obedience.


The law has been fulfilled, Matthew 5:18 and abolished, Ephesians 2:15. This is why Paul said, "The Just Shall Live By Faith" Romans 1:17.

Living by laws, rules or commandments is a waste of time and is an indicator of lack of faith. Christians are called to live by the Spirit of Christ and not the letter of the law.

"Who has made us able ministers of the New Testament; NOT OF THE LETTER (law) but of the Spirit: for the letter (Law) kills, but the Spirit gives life" 2 Corinthians 3:6.

Your law keeping religion is dead and is passing away, Hebrews 8:13.
 

Robert Pate

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Sounds like all you need is a magic phrase to conjure yourself up some salvation. If that's the case then print up a script and have everyone repeat the magic words...
Of course if you actually understood 2 Corinthians 5 you would know it's not preaching universalism at all.


There are no magic words. All through the Old Testament and into the New Testament people are saved and justified by faith. They believed in God's promise of a savior and were justified by their faith.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
Jesus was predestinated to be the savior of the world, 1 John 2:2.

All that by their own free wills that trust in Jesus to be their savior are predestinated to have eternal life, Romans 8:29, 30.

God does not predestinate people to eternal life or to hell. If he did that he would be unjust and a sinner. God is no respecter of anyone's person, Acts 10:34.



NOT if HE predestined their lives to fulfill the fate they chose by their own free will...
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
We have all been bitten by that old serpent the devil, this is why Paul wrote,

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

Yet you do not accept that we are enslaved, ie addicted, to that evil and thus still have a free will. I do accept our enslavement and that our free will is ended by it.
 

MennoSota

New member
There are no magic words. All through the Old Testament and into the New Testament people are saved and justified by faith. They believed in God's promise of a savior and were justified by their faith.
The faith gifted to them by God, not conjured up by their own will (so that they cannot boast).
 

Robert Pate

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NOT if HE predestined their lives to fulfill the fate they chose by their own free will...

Man has the ability to make choices. This is how we learn. If we make a bad choice, chances are we will not make that choice again. However, some people never learn.
 

Robert Pate

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Banned
The faith gifted to them by God, not conjured up by their own will (so that they cannot boast).

Everyone is born with the ability to believe and have faith. As children we have faith in our parents, later we learn to have faith in others. It is a natural human attribute.

Faith in Christ comes by hearing and believing the Gospel, Romans 10:17.
 

God's Truth

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The law has been fulfilled, Matthew 5:18 and abolished, Ephesians 2:15. This is why Paul said, "The Just Shall Live By Faith" Romans 1:17.
The just shall live by faith IN THAT they have to just believe Jesus' blood cleans them.

Living by laws, rules or commandments is a waste of time and is an indicator of lack of faith.
So those who obeyed God wasted their time? Don't you know how ignorant that is to say?
Jesus came and told us what to do to get saved and receive the Holy Spirit, but you say it is a waste of time to do it?
Christians are called to live by the Spirit of Christ and not the letter of the law.
The letter of the law is written on the hearts and minds of the saved and it is about not have to clean yourself and sacrifice animals.

"Who has made us able ministers of the New Testament; NOT OF THE LETTER (law) but of the Spirit: for the letter (Law) kills, but the Spirit gives life" 2 Corinthians 3:6.
There is a new law from Jesus and it is about how to get mercy and forgiveness.

Your law keeping religion is dead and is passing away, Hebrews 8:13.

You prove you have no sense when you say it is a waste of time to obey Jesus' words when he walked the earth.
 

God's Truth

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There are no magic words. All through the Old Testament and into the New Testament people are saved and justified by faith. They believed in God's promise of a savior and were justified by their faith.

No, the people in the Old Testament had to obey the purification/ceremonial works.

Don't you care about the truth at all?

You say no one had to obey the old law but just have faith!!!

Don't you care about whether you are speaking truth or not?

Do you think you know better than God Himself?

Abraham had faith in God but he still had to get circumcised in the flesh.

God was going to kill Moses because he wasn't going to circumcise his son.

The Gentiles were without God in the world because they didn't want to enter the covenant of circumcision.

You like your false beliefs so much more than God's truth.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
The just shall live by faith IN THAT they have to just believe Jesus' blood cleans them.


So those who obeyed God wasted their time? Don't you know how ignorant that is to say?
Jesus came and told us what to do to get saved and receive the Holy Spirit, but you say it is a waste of time to do it?

The letter of the law is written on the hearts and minds of the saved and it is about not have to clean yourself and sacrifice animals.


There is a new law from Jesus and it is about how to get mercy and forgiveness.



You prove you have no sense when you say it is a waste of time to obey Jesus' words when he walked the earth.


You are in complete and total denial of the New Testament message that "The Just Shall Live By Faith" Romans 1:17. You want to live like a law keeping Pharisee. You are under a curse just like them and you will perish just like them, Galatians 3:10.
 

MennoSota

New member
Everyone is born with the ability to believe and have faith. As children we have faith in our parents, later we learn to have faith in others. It is a natural human attribute.

Faith in Christ comes by hearing and believing the Gospel, Romans 10:17.

We've gone over this ad nauseum.
Spiritually dead people cannot hear and cannot believe.
God must choose to make a person alive in Christ first. Once that happens Romans 10:17 can take place.
Read Ephesians 2:1-10
[1]Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins.
[2]You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.
[3]All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.
[4]But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much,
[5]that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)
[6]For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.
[7]So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.
[8]God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
[9]Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.
[10]For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.
 

JudgeRightly

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The faith gifted to them by God, not conjured up by their own will (so that they cannot boast).
So humbling oneself and putting one's faith in God who did everything required is considered boasting?

Contradiction much?

You realize that when the verse says "lest any man should boast," it's not talking about boasting about Christ, right?

Because Paul says:

But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. - Galatians 6:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians6:14&version=NKJV
 

God's Truth

New member
The faith gifted to them by God, not conjured up by their own will (so that they cannot boast).

Faith is from God, from reading His powerful message, the Bible, the New Testament. It has the powerful message that saves. We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.'

2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

WE MUST HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD TO HAVE FAITH.

Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11. In Acts 26:17 Jesus tells Paul he is sending him to the Jews and Gentiles to OPEN THEIR EYES and turn them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. How do you think Paul is going to open the eyes of the Jews and the Gentiles? Remember, faith comes from hearing the word, and Jesus sent Paul to preach the gospel. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Paul is going to open their eyes by preaching to them.


Read what Paul says in Romans 16:25-27. Now to him who is able to ESTABLISH YOU BY MY GOSPEL AND THE PROCLAMATION OF JESUS CHRIST, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and MADE KNOWN THROUGH THE PROPHETIC WRITINGS by the command of the eternal God, SO THAT ALL NATIONS MIGHT BELIEVE AND OBEY HIM–to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Paul says that God made the prophetic writings known so that all nations might believe and obey. So again, the word of God tells us that faith comes from hearing. Here are more scriptures that explain how we have to HEAR the message that saves: Acts 8:31: 10:14; 11:14; 16:31; John 9:36; Ephesians 1:13; 4:21; Titus 1:3; Colossians 1:5; 1:23.
 

God's Truth

New member
Man has the ability to make choices. This is how we learn. If we make a bad choice, chances are we will not make that choice again. However, some people never learn.

What choices? You said commands and laws are a waste of time!


Living by laws, rules or commandments is a waste of time and is an indicator of lack of faith. Christians are called to live by the Spirit of Christ and not the letter of the law.
 

God's Truth

New member
Everyone is born with the ability to believe and have faith. As children we have faith in our parents, later we learn to have faith in others. It is a natural human attribute.

Faith in Christ comes by hearing and believing the Gospel, Romans 10:17.

We have faith in our parents and don't have to obey them?!!!

Everyone reading, listen to Robert Pate, he had just earlier said that obeying is a waste of time but faith is all that is needed.

However, he claims our 'faith' in our parents gives us automatic obedience...um what? He just said that rules are worthless and a waste of time.
 

God's Truth

New member
You are in complete and total denial of the New Testament message that "The Just Shall Live By Faith" Romans 1:17. You want to live like a law keeping Pharisee. You are under a curse just like them and you will perish just like them, Galatians 3:10.

The Pharisees DID NOT OBEY Jesus and repent of their sins.

That makes you like the Pharisees.
 

God's Truth

New member
You are under a curse just like them and you will perish just like them, Galatians 3:10.

How goofy and pathetic. God doesn't make people perish for obeying Jesus.

Jesus didn't come and make a covenant, the same covenant that was already in effect.

Don't you have any ability to reason, or are you completely ensnared?
 

God's Truth

New member
We've gone over this ad nauseum.
Spiritually dead people cannot hear and cannot believe.
God must choose to make a person alive in Christ first. Once that happens Romans 10:17 can take place.
Read Ephesians 2:1-10
[1]Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins.
[2]You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.
[3]All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.
[4]But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much,
[5]that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)
[6]For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.
[7]So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.
[8]God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
[9]Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.
[10]For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

Not everyone is spiritually dead.

Some people are spiritually dead, because they are so sinful and want only to please their flesh in sinful ways.

Stop saying all are spiritually dead and cannot hear and believe the message, because it it to people who are not spiritually dead from an excess of faith, it is to those who do fear God and do right....it is to those people who are accepted by God and to whom the message is given.

Christ isn't even offering it to you until you do right.
This is the called, the chosen, those whom God saves:
Acts 10:35 but that in every nation those who fear Him and live good lives are acceptable to Him.

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

Psalm 50:23 Whoever sacrifices a thank offering honors Me, and whoever orders his conduct, I will show him the salvation of God."

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

John 14:21 The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him."

John 15:10 If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commandments and remain in his love.

Acts 13:26 "Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

John 18:37 Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
 

God's Truth

New member
So humbling oneself and putting one's faith in God who did everything required is considered boasting?

Contradiction much?

You realize that when the verse says "lest any man should boast," it's not talking about boasting about Christ, right?

Because Paul says:

But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. - Galatians 6:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians6:14&version=NKJV

Paul says people can no longer boast in cleaning themselves, as the Jews used to do.

Paul did boast in people who obeyed God, and Paul even boasted in himself for obeying.

It is never ever shameful to obey God.
 
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