The Gospel Verses Predestination

[God's Truth]

Calvinists believe that no one can accept God on their own. Which scripture or scriptures say that? Explain why it does not say that anywhere in the Bible.

Read Galatians 3:2. In Galatians 3:2 we read that Paul asks the Galatians if they received the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? If they were predestined to be saved, how could they need to have Christ formed in them all over again?
Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

 

[MennoSota]

You are going against the scriptures I gave. Go back and study harder what your opponent says, if you want to have a good debate. I did that with the Calvinists' beliefs, now you go and do that with what I said here.

Have you failed to read about God's adoption and choice of his saints? That's like missing a big blinking neon sign.

 

[MennoSota]

All the scriptures Calvinists use to try to prove their beliefs are actually passages explaining how the Gentiles come into salvation.

Jews are God’s first people, and salvation had to be an offering to the Jews firstly.
In addition, God had hardened many of the Jews.
They did not believe, and they were hardened. Gentiles grafted in when Jews were hardened and cut off.
The elect are the people who believe. The Gentiles obtained what Israel sought so earnestly (by works). We are saved by grace and not of by works. The Jews had the Law to which they worked. Paul says, “I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.” (Romans 9:1-5)

The Remnant of Israel

Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3″Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,

Again, the elect are the people who believe in Jesus. We believe in Jesus, and this believing Jesus saves us. That is God’s grace. The people who would not believe in Jesus, they are the people who were hardened for not believing.

All humans, whether Jew or Gentile must be chosen by God to be quickened. No dead man has ever quickened himself.

 

[God's Truth]

All humans, whether Jew or Gentile must be chosen by God to be quickened. No dead man has ever quickened himself.

God does not quicken people who do not believe in Him!

 

[God's Truth]

Have you failed to read about God's adoption and choice of his saints? That's like missing a big blinking neon sign.

God picks saints who believe and obey Him.

God does not make those who hate Him 'saints'.

 

[beloved57]

God does not quicken people who do not believe in Him!

False statement no where found in scripture !

 

[beloved57]

God picks saints who believe and obey Him.

God does not make those who hate Him 'saints'.

Two statements nowhere found in scripture !

 

[beloved57]

1 Thessalonians 2:13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

Why did Paul not say '...which is at work in you who were enabled to believe'? I mean, Paul is taking time to explain carefully to the Thessalonians, so why not explain more adequately.

They believed as a result of the Sanctification of the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13

¹³ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[God's Truth]

False statement no where found in scripture !

It is nowhere in the scriptures that say God quickens those who hate Him.

Why believe in false Calvinistic teachings/

God does not quicken people who do not believe in Him.

God quickens those who love Him by obeying Him.

Amen.

 

[God's Truth]

They believed as a result of the Sanctification of the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13

¹³ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1 Samuel 2:30 "Therefore the LORD, the God of Israel, declares: 'I promised that members of your family would minister before me forever.' But now the LORD declares: 'Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained.

 

[MennoSota]

Not directly, no. But indirectly, you said that in order for someone to come to Christ, they must be baptised.

By quoting the Great Commission, being someone who believes that only by Christ regenerating someone can they come to know Him, you have specified that only by being baptised can Christ regenerate someone.

No I haven't. You have projected your prejudice upon my words.

That is inherently contradictory to your position, AND to mine, which is that one has to simply believe for Christ to save them.

My position is that God must quicken a person and give them faith. This happens when an obedient ambassador of God's Kingdom goes and teaches the Gospel. Upon those newly quickened persons adoption I am to disciple them and then baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as the Great Commission tells us.

Perhaps not to the extent that Christians can know God, no. But they can acknowledge that He exists,

Even Satan acknowledges God's existence.

and even come to repentance of their wrongdoing, and trust in Him, and serve Him.

Only by God's choice to quicken them. No dead man ever decided to become alive.

Again, see Romans 2.

Keep reading the rest of Romans. It proves you dreadfully wrong.

So faith comes by people sharing or supernatural revelation only?

No, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Ever seen a dead man hear, listen and respond?
Only God can quicken the dead spirit.

God's word isn't just the Bible. It's all of creation, that should men cease praising Him the rocks themselves would cry out. The heavens declare God's glory. You can't go 5 inches in this world without coming across something that God created.

Do you worship creation?

The word is Jesus, God the Son.
God provides general revelation of Himself in creation. God provides specific revelation in the Bible. If the Bible is not necessary, why is God's revelation of Jesus atonement necessary? Can a person know their Redeemer by general revelation alone?

Since Christ's DBR,

I have know idea what you mean by DBR.

ALL have been given a parachute, whether they're aware of it or not.

There is no mention of parachutes in the Bible.

They are still able, however to pull the cord once they become aware of it.

How does a dead man become aware of a parachute and a rip cord?

How can they be made aware of it? They just need to look at the world around them, and recognize that something or Someone created it all, and then put their faith in that Entity.

How does a dead man look around? The Gospel is foolishness to them.

Remember back in Acts when Paul was in Greece, he came upon a sign in the midst of the objects they worshipped?

What did that sign say?

It said: "To the unknown God."

Even those who have never heard of the Bible or the law can recognize God.

Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious;for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you:God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising.Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” - Acts 17:22-31 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts17:22-31&version=NKJV

General revelation.
Paul had to go and teach. Acts tells us that "those who were appointed to salvation" became Christians. It is not something a dead man can do.

Straw man.

Indeed, you whole argument is made of straw...chaff.

Have you forgotten?

I know very well that God has chosen me from before the foundation of the world.

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:10-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:10-13&version=NKJV

What a great passage about God's elective work. Thanks for sharing.

 

[MennoSota]

Calvinists believe that no one can accept God on their own. Which scripture or scriptures say that? Explain why it does not say that anywhere in the Bible.

Read Galatians 3:2. In Galatians 3:2 we read that Paul asks the Galatians if they received the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? If they were predestined to be saved, how could they need to have Christ formed in them all over again?
Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Passages have been repeatedly given, yet you reject them.
Ephesians 1 and 2. Romans 8 and 9. Colossians, Philippians, 1 and 2 Peter, etc.
The reason why I believe in God’s predestination, election and choosing is because I see it in Genesis 1 through Revelation 22.

 

[God's Truth]

Passages have been repeatedly given, yet you reject them.
Ephesians 1 and 2. Romans 8 and 9. Colossians, Philippians, 1 and 2 Peter, etc.
The reason why I believe in God’s predestination, election and choosing is because I see it in Genesis 1 through Revelation 22.

So you can't defend your beliefs but just because you say so? No.

 

[Robert Pate]

Calvinism makes a sham out of Paul's ministry. If everyone has been predestinated then there is no need to preach the Gospel. Paul traveled over 10,000 miles and was beaten multiple times by the Jews that followed him every where that he went. Why did Jesus say, "Go into the world and preach the Gospel" If everything has already been decided. All of the apostles died violent deaths, except for John. They died because they were persecuted for preaching the Gospel, not because they believed that they had been predestinated.

 

[MennoSota]

So you can't defend your beliefs but just because you say so? No.

It is not my job to read the Bible to you like I would read to an illiterate toddler. The Bible very clearly says that God predestines, elects and chooses whom He will adopt. I cannot make you accept what is clearly stated GT. Do you close your eyes when reading Romans 8 and 9? Do you close your eyes when reading Ephesians 1 and 2? The only way you can miss it is if you close your eyes or are illiterate. Since you respond in this thread, I take it you are literate. That leaves the possibility that you just close your eyes whenever you read of God's predestination, election and choosing. Do you close your eyes, GT?

 

[MennoSota]

Calvinism makes a sham out of Paul's ministry. If everyone has been predestinated then there is no need to preach the Gospel. Paul traveled over 10,000 miles and was beaten multiple times by the Jews that followed him every where that he went. Why did Jesus say, "Go into the world and preach the Gospel" If everything has already been decided. All of the apostles died violent deaths, except for John. They died because they were persecuted for preaching the Gospel, not because they believed that they had been predestinated.

We preach to the world. God quickens the elect. This is God's commission to his saints.

 

[Robert Pate]

We preach to the world. God quickens the elect. This is God's commission to his saints.

No one is quicken that does not hear and believe the Gospel, Romans 10:17 also Galatians 3:2.

 

[MennoSota]

No one is quicken that does not hear and believe the Gospel, Romans 10:17 also Galatians 3:2.

Correct, unless God quickens a person they cannot hear or believe.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Why did Jesus say, "Go into the world and preach the Gospel"

Because the ordinary means by which God's children are brought into the Kingdom is by the promiscuous preaching of the Good News, Robert.

The means serve to achieve God's ends (His plans encompassed in His decree), one of which end and a very important end, is the salvation of all for whom Jesus Christ came to redeem.

Rather than tossing out the old canards signaling your lack of being informed, outside of heretical hyper-Calvinists, e.g., beloved57 and Nanja, you should be accurate when representing what orthodox Calvinists believe.

AMR

 

[God's Truth]

Correct, unless God quickens a person they cannot hear or believe.

No such scripture anywhere. In fact that belief goes against many scriptures.