ECT The Gospel Proper

[Rosenritter]

Is there even one single time that you have ever conceded even the most childishly simple of points?

The Greek word is euaggelion and, as I said, the dictionary meaning of the word is "good news". That's what the word means, get over it.


How long before you figure out that I can detect your leading questions before I'm finished reading them and will not be taking your bait?

Evaggelion as in the message of angels? That's more than simply "good news."

Regardless, I wasn't asking you questions. I already know from experience that you will refuse to answer the simplest questions when you sense it will "trap" you in your own words. You are welcome to stay silent to avoid "being baited."

 

[Clete]

If there's no preaching of the cross as the sole and complete remedy for sin, then no saving message is being preached, whatever other details may be included. Anyone who believes any Bible facts MINUS the content of 1 Cor 15:3-4 is not saved.

You agree that my list covers that base, yes?

 

[musterion]

You agree that my list covers that base, yes?

• God exists.
• He is the Creator of all things and He is holy, perfect and just.
• We have, by doing evil things, rebelled against God.
• We, having rebelled against the God who gave us life, deserve death.
• God, being unwilling that all should perish, provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ and who is God incarnate.
• Jesus, being Himself innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
• Jesus rose from the dead.
• If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.

To make sure I'm clear, are you saying a person MUST know and believe each of those points or they're not saved?

 

[Clete]

Evaggelion as in the message of angels? That's more than simply "good news."

Regardless, I wasn't asking you questions. I already know from experience that you will refuse to answer the simplest questions when you sense it will "trap" you in your own words. You are welcome to stay silent to avoid "being baited."

I directly answered your question as asked.

It isn't my fault that you would rather set rhetorical traps rather than making rational arguments. Don't be mad at me because I'm smart enough to see your tactics.

If you want to steer every conversation toward the topic of "the gospel has never changed" then just make the argument.

 

[Rosenritter]

The factuality of something is not the same as faith. To know is but one component of faith, the other two components being trust and assent. If the devil and his minions truly know the Gospel, they would not be demons, yet, just as unbelievers may claim intellectual knowledge of God, not a one of them trust nor confidently affirm what they claim to know.

Yes~! We are saved by faith, not saved by facts. The assumption of salvation by facts seems more like a type of salvation by the intellect (of man), a "salvation by our works" of which Gnosticism might be an extreme example.

Those in Hell know God exists. They are full of regret, but not genuine repentance. If it were possible for such to genuinely repent, they would actually recognize and know that they are exactly where they should be. Alas, this does not happen, for they will continue eternally to gnash their teeth (grinding in hatred) with fists upward at God, hence justifying their eternal retribution by God.

I wanted to give a total post endorsement, but we are specifically told that those in hell do not know that God exists.

Psalms 6:5 KJV
(5) For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

We should avoid attributing to satan and his minions more knowledge than is warranted.

AMR

1 Peter 1:12 KJV
(12) Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

There might be certain things blocked from their understanding that we take for granted in ours... just as the reverse scenario might be true?

 

[Rosenritter]

I directly answered you question as asked.

It isn't my fault that you would rather set rhetorical traps rather than making rational arguments. Don't be mad at me because I'm smart enough to see your tactics.

If you want to stear every conversation toward the topic of "the gospel has never changed" then just make the argument.

Since one gospel of salvation of one God and one Savior towards his people of one seed (not many seeds) in Abraham is the central theme of the whole Bible, it would be awfully hard to participate on any bible forum without that topic coming back into play.

 

[Rosenritter]

* Jesus rose from the dead.
* If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.

To make sure I'm clear, are you saying a person MUST know and believe each of those points or they're not saved?

Did the thief on the cross know and acknowledge that Jesus rose from the dead? Or did he rather have faith that Jesus would rise from the dead at a future time, that he would come into His kingdom?

 

[musterion]

Did the thief on the cross know and acknowledge that Jesus rose from the dead? Or did he rather have faith that Jesus would rise from the dead at a future time, that he would come into His kingdom?

You have committed a category error and so are asking the wrong questions.

The thief was still under the prior economy of Law, which for us is deactivated and irrelevant. See Hebrews 9:16-17.

 

[musterion]

You agree that my list covers that base, yes?

The following are only my opinions.

I will no longer cite any form of Romans 10:9-10 with the lost. It runs the risk of someone putting their faith in the act of verbally confessing words or praying, as many do with the physical act of false water baptism...it can easily take on false spiritual "weight" which they believe pleases God. I personally would have no problem sharing the part you put into parentheses, however.

Also, I would also add Romans 4:25 to the part about His rising from the dead. For the saved, that's the result of His resurrection, as Paul makes that very important point...we're not only forgiven all sins but also completely justified in Him.

Apart from that, I have no disagreement. Again, just my opinions.

 

[Clete]

To make sure I'm clear, are you saying a person MUST know and believe each of those points or they're not saved?

Yes.

Also, I've intentionally NOT made any commentary about them. I know that some of these might mean different things to different people but my goal was to make them general enough to be accurate while specific enough to be unavoidably Christian. That goal wasn't entirely met, as the almost immediate discussion about Mormonism demonstrates.

 

[Clete]

Since one gospel of salvation of one God and one Savior towards his people of one seed (not many seeds) in Abraham is the central theme of the whole Bible, it would be awfully hard to participate on any bible forum without that topic coming back into play.

Whatever. This forum has existed for decades. It is you who are stuck on the issue of the gospel having never changed, not the forum.

 

[steko]

Did the thief on the cross know and acknowledge that Jesus rose from the dead? Or did he rather have faith that Jesus would rise from the dead at a future time, that he would come into His kingdom?

All that was required of the thief in that dispensation was to believe that Jesus of Nazareth was Israel's promised Messiah and the Son of GOD.

 

[Clete]

Did the thief on the cross know and acknowledge that Jesus rose from the dead? Or did he rather have faith that Jesus would rise from the dead at a future time, that he would come into His kingdom?

Prior to Jesus rising from the dead, belief in His resurrection was not part of the gospel. Duh!

The Apostle's themselves didn't believe in nor preach neither Christ's death nor His resurrection! They most certainly did preach a gospel though! Today, it isn't possible, not the least bit possible, to even discuss the gospel, much less preach it, without mentioning both! An obvious, undeniable change in the gospel.

Except, that is for those who refuse to see the obvious and are more interested in playing word games than they are in acknowledging obvious facts.

Clete

 

[Rosenritter]

You have committed a category error and so are asking the wrong questions.

The thief was still under the prior economy of Law, which for us is deactivated and irrelevant. See Hebrews 9:16-17.

The promise received by the thief was conditional upon Christ's payment of his sin, the receiving of His forgiveness, and Christ's rising from the dead. The promise was eternal life and salvation. The thief was NOT saved "by LAW" ... he was CONDEMNED by law. He said so himself.

 

[Rosenritter]

Whatever. This forum has existed for decades. It is you who are stuck on the issue of the gospel having never changed, not the forum.

Dispensationalism hasn't existed for that many decades.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Dispensationalism hasn't existed for that many decades.

It has existed for almost two millenia...

For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles—if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. - Ephesians 3:1-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians3:1-7&version=NKJV

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. - 2 Timothy 2:15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Timothy2:15&version=NKJV

 

[Rosenritter]

Prior to Jesus rising from the dead, belief in His resurrection was not part of the gospel. Duh!

The Apostle's themselves didn't believe in nor preach neither Christ's death nor His resurrection! They most certainly did preach a gospel though! Today, it isn't possible, not the least bit possible, to even discuss the gospel, much less preach it, without mentioning both! An obvious, undebiable change in the gospel.

Except, that is for those who refuse to see the obvious and are more interested in playing word games than they are in acknowledging obvious facts.

Clete

Awesome. You might not have realized what you were doing when you wrote that, but you admitted that this was the same gospel, even if the certain facts of that gospel were not yet fully understood or revealed.

Prior to Jesus rising from the dead, belief in His resurrection was not part of the gospel. Duh!

Technically the resurrection of Jesus was part of the gospel (having been revealed in the prophets and preached by Christ himself) ... but I find it more interesting that you said "was not part of the gospel" thus implying that it became part of the gospel later.

So will the little light dawn and can we proceed in agreement? Or do we object and fight because that would make the Jew and Gentile of the same seed of Abraham?

 

[Clete]

The following are only my opinions.

I will no longer cite any form of Romans 10:9-10 with the lost. It runs the risk of someone putting their faith in the act of verbally confessing words or praying, as many do with the physical act of false water baptism...it can easily take on false spiritual "weight" which they believe pleases God. I personally would have no problem sharing the part you put into parentheses, however.

I don't think that I would say that this list of doctrines should serve as a guideline for how to preach the gospel but merely as a concise way of conciesly communicating what the gospel is. A way of stating what all real Christians must hold as core common ground doctrines.

I don't know if you've ever asked another Christian the question, "What is the gospel?" or not but it's stunning the degree of difficulty there is in finding firm agreement even on something as central as the gospel itself. It is this difficulty that propted me to start the thread.

Also, I would also add Romans 4:25 to the part about His rising from the dead. For the saved, that's the result of His resurrection, as Paul makes that very important point...we're not only forgiven all sins but also completely justified in Him.

Apart from that, I have no disagreement. Again, just my opinions.

I've been waiting for someone to bring this up.

I agree entirely that Romans 4:25 is a hugely important part of the Gospel of Grace as are several other things, not the least of which is the idea that we are to reckon ourselves crucified in Christ and Christ lives His life through us and all the other so called "identification truths".

The reason I have not included those things is because my goal isn't to boil down Paul's entire ministy and message but merely to condense the gospel down to those specific things that one must believe in order to GET saved. Think of these other issues as the meat whereas I'm focussing only on the milk.

Clete

 

[Rosenritter]

It has existed for almost two millenia...

For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles—if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. - Ephesians 3:1-7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians3:1-7&version=NKJV

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. - 2 Timothy 2:15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Timothy2:15&version=NKJV

It's a new doctrine going to the 1800's, seemingly based upon a misuse of the word "divide" and a rejection of multiple passages that contradict some of its core concepts.

 

[steko]

The promise received by the thief was conditional upon Christ's payment of his sin, the receiving of His forgiveness, and Christ's rising from the dead. The promise was eternal life and salvation. The thief was NOT saved "by LAW" ... he was CONDEMNED by law. He said so himself.

Anyone who is ever saved is dependent on the act of Christ's finished work on the cross. Not all who are saved have the knowledge of that act nor have all that have been saved been required to have that knowledge.