ECT The Gospel Proper

[Clete]

In your hypothetical example, is the rejection of the divinity of Christ from maliciousness or from lack of understanding? If someone has only heard flawed explanations for the divinity of Christ, are they to be faulted for rejecting bad arguments?

I have since been convinced that the deity of Christ is a primary 'ingredient' of the gospel and so the question is sort of moot at this point.

However, God will lead those who dilligently seek Him into the truth. If one believes a lie then that's a bad situation. We are saved because we believe the truth.

I have a real example (not myself) of someone I knew whose understanding changed on this exact point of belief. From somewhat knowing him before, during, and after, The object of his faith remained unchanged: he believed in God and had faith in God. So what changed? Simply the realization that Jesus was the same God in which he had already placed his faith.

I don't think that he received a different spirit because of his change of belief, but rather that his belief was able to change because of the spirit of Christ. Is the divinity of Christ important? Yes, for how else could he forgive our sin? And how else can we truly know God as He reveals Himself to us? But are we saved by knowing certain "facts?" I would say that we are saved by faith, not by facts.

Your last sentence is a distinction without a difference. Push that logic to an extreme and see if it holds up. It won't. You will find yourself forced to defend that our faith is not in the mere fact there is a god but that the biblical God is the only God and that the bible teaches us certain facts concerning Him and His desired relationship with us and the parameters surrounding that relationship. In other words, you don't get to just believe whatever you want just because you're sincere. It sounds nice but that isn't the way it works.

Further, it's dangerous. You'd have been doing your friend a favor by giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he was NOT saved until he came to accept that Jesus was God incarnate. Doing otherwise may well have doomed him for eternity.

John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[turbosixx]

Is there anything else that anyone can think of that would make my presentation of the gospel proper better?

Baptism

 

[JudgeRightly]

Baptism

Which one?

 

[turbosixx]

Which one?

Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

[JudgeRightly]

Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

So, water baptism, then?

So then why did Paul not baptise anyone except for a few people at the beginning of his ministry?

 

[steko]

Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Why limit it to that verse.
There are more instructions in Mt 28 than that.
Let's not forget the rest of Christ's instructions to the eleven, post resurrection, pre-ascension:

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

These are all parts of one unified commission to the eleven, extending to Matthias to make up twelve.

People pick and choose which individual commands that they want to include in what they consider the 'Great Commission'.

I know of no one today that includes all of them as their commission.

 

[turbosixx]

So, water baptism, then?

So then why did Paul not baptise anyone except for a few people at the beginning of his ministry?

Yes, water.
1, If baptism isn't part of the gospel, then why would Paul baptize anyone at all? That would be adding.
2, I would suggest to you Paul baptized throughout his entire ministry. Here on his 3rd journey, nearly 20 years into his ministry, he is baptizing believers.
Acts 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

 

[turbosixx]

Why limit it to that verse.
There are more instructions in Mt 28 than that.
Let's not forget the rest of Christ's instructions to the eleven, post resurrection, pre-ascension:

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

These are all parts of one unified commission to the eleven, extending to Matthias to make up twelve.

People pick and choose which individual commands that they want to include in what they consider the 'Great Commission'.

I know of no one today that includes all of them as their commission.

I wasn't limiting, I just wanted to start somewhere. I don't believe it's wise to have a doctrine built upon one verse. Especially if it's invalidated by other verses.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yes, water.
1, If baptism isn't part of the gospel, then why would Paul baptize anyone at all? That would be adding.
2, I would suggest to you Paul baptized throughout his entire ministry. Here on his 3rd journey, nearly 20 years into his ministry, he is baptizing believers.
Acts 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

20 years after Paul's conversion, he says this, contrasting (not including) baptism with spreading the gospel.

I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name.Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. - 1 Corinthians 1:14-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians1:14-17&version=NKJV

Clearly, he did not consider baptism to be part of the gospel...

 

[JudgeRightly]

I wasn't limiting, I just wanted to start somewhere. I don't believe it's wise to have a doctrine built upon one verse. Especially if it's invalidated by other verses.

Hypocrite.

Yes, water.
1, If baptism isn't part of the gospel, then why would Paul baptize anyone at all? That would be adding.
2, I would suggest to you Paul baptized throughout his entire ministry. Here on his 3rd journey, nearly 20 years into his ministry, he is baptizing believers.
Acts 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

 

[turbosixx]

20 years after Paul's conversion, he says this, contrasting (not including) baptism with spreading the gospel.

I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name.Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. - 1 Corinthians 1:14-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians1:14-17&version=NKJV

Clearly, he did not consider baptism to be part of the gospel...

So what is Paul's point in this passage? If Jesus sent him not to baptize (20 years earlier), then why did he baptize believers just as Peter did on Pentecost? He had to have a reason.

 

[Rosenritter]

I agree that the gospel is what has been presented in the OP, with more emphasis added to the fact that Jesus is God Himself.

The dictionary meaning of the word 'gospel' itself is simply "good news". It can be and has been used to reference many different things.

I cannot think of any place where the bible uses the word "gospel" as simply "good news."

 

[Rosenritter]

Why limit it to that verse.
There are more instructions in Mt 28 than that.
Let's not forget the rest of Christ's instructions to the eleven, post resurrection, pre-ascension:

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

These are all parts of one unified commission to the eleven, extending to Matthias to make up twelve.

People pick and choose which individual commands that they want to include in what they consider the 'Great Commission'.

I know of no one today that includes all of them as their commission.

It is a great commission that spans generations, not summed or completed in any one person.

 

[Rosenritter]

20 years after Paul's conversion, he says this, contrasting (not including) baptism with spreading the gospel.

I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name.Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. - 1 Corinthians 1:14-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians1:14-17&version=NKJV

Clearly, he did not consider baptism to be part of the gospel...

That isn't good logic.

1 Corinthians 3:5-9 KJV
(5) Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
(6) I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
(7) So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
(8) Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
(9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

You are essentially saying that if one plants and another waters then they must be preaching different gospels.

 

[Idolater]

The demons acknowledge the facts of history as does Satan himself.

Apples and oranges.

 

[Idolater]

I cannot think of any place where the bible uses the word "gospel" as simply "good news."

And I cannot think of better news than that my favorite Person Who ever lived is risen from the dead. 2nd Timothy 2:8 KJV (Mt28:6KJV Mk16:6KJV Lk24:6KJV)

 

[Rosenritter]

An excellent biblical proof that Jesus Christ is indeed God Himself but this point is not in dispute.

It was post 47 and the quotation of John 8:24 in particular that has succesfully convinced me that it ought to be included in the gospel proper.

Clete

John 8:24-26 KJV
(24) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
(25) Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
(26) I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

In John 8:24 it is hard to be dogmatic that Jesus meant "unless you believe that I AM" where our translation says "unless you believe that I am he." I readily acknowledge that Jesus is "I AM" (as introduced to Moses at the bush) but that could also be read as meaning:

* Unless you believe that I am from above (from John 8:23)
* Unless you believe that I am the judge of you (from John 8:26)
* Unless you believe that I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him (also from John 8:26)
* Unless you believe that I am the Son of Man lifted up as your Passover Lamb (John 8:28)
* Unless you believe that I do nothing of myself but as the Father hath taught me (John 8:28)

I do believe that any (or all) of those points above do eventually lead from "I am he" to "I AM" when followed to their natural conclusion, but again, "believe" is a matter of that which is brought to life in the heart, not that which is coolly acknowledged in the head. If one proceeds in faith that the words of Christ are those of God in heaven above, the rest will eventually fall into place. We are saved by faith made perfect, not by perfect facts.

 

[Clete]

You guys can debate water baptism all you want. I will NOT be including it in the gospel proper. Getting wet has nothing to do with getting saved.

 

[Rosenritter]

And I cannot think of better news than that my favorite Person Who ever lived is risen from the dead. 2nd Timothy 2:8 KJV (Mt28:6KJV Mk16:6KJV Lk24:6KJV)

Is that "simply" good news?

simply
adverb
2. merely; just.
"simply complete the application form"

synonyms:

merely, just, purely, solely, only "they are welcomed simply because they have plenty of money"

 

[Idolater]

Is that "simply" good news?

simply
adverb
2. merely; just.
"simply complete the application form"

synonyms:

merely, just, purely, solely, only "they are welcomed simply because they have plenty of money"

It's at least 'simply' Good News. It's more than that but not less. In no way is Christ's Resurrection not Good News. :thumb: on the 'table' formatting also---'learn something new everyday.