ECT The Gospel Proper

Status
Not open for further replies.

Danoh

New member
What Romans 11's Grafting In Actually Is

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

That was Israel.

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Israel alone had had a door of faith.

But that did not automatically save them, rather, it gave them direct acces to blessings and or salvation.

For they still had to enter through that door - of faith.

This was why many of them were cut off.

Because they'd never believed, to begin with.

For they were all expected to circumcise the foreskin of their hearts, which is the issue of letting go their unbelief and believing the word of faith preached unto them in the Law by their Prophets.

After Israel fell, this same principle now applied to ALL Gentiles.

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

As briefly noted in Acts, Romans 11 asserts that Israel's fall has resulted in the door of faith having been opened to the Gentiles.

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 13:49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region. 13:50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts. 13:51 But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.

Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

That refers to ALL Gentiles.

But, just as had been the case with Israel, that does not mean a Gentile was automatically saved just because the door of faith had been opened unto them.

Rather, just like Israel, the Gentiles had to walk through that door - of faith.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

This is why Paul states in Romans 11 that the Gentiles can be cut off - right after his having said that that was why Unbelieving Israel was cut off.

Because Paul is not talking about Gentiles who believe, anymore than he is talking about Israelites who had believed.

He is talking about lost people needing to get saved by believing, while the door of faith is still open to them, as had been the case with Israel when their door of faith had been open unto them.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

He is talking about ALL Gentiles in general, but they have to avail themselves of that salvation - by believing.

The grafting in is not salvation, rather it is into a place of access, of being able avail oneself of salvation - because the door of faith was now being made available "to the Gentiles also."

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

How long will this door of faith be open to both during this Mystery Grace Age?

Exactly why Paul warns Gentiles they can be cut off, to begin with.

Because said now open door of faith has an expiration date on it.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

That part there (about the cutting off and then its back to finally finishing up with Israel) is described in 2 Thessalonians 2, per Israel's Prophets.

Acts 17:11, 12.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame

Instead of reading what the NT writers actually say about baptism, that is strongly ignored in favor of OT washings. I am familiar with the OT, not an expert but familiar enough to understand those things are a shadow of the things we have IN Christ.
..the NT writers actually say about baptism, that is strongly ignored in favor of OT washing]
=false dichotomy, as baptisms in Matthew-John, prior to the dbr, is Old Covenant law ground, right from the washings laid out in the OC.


I agree, that you are just "familiar with the OT," like your Domino's Pizza menu, clueless, and not only not an expert, explaining your disjointed, made up assertions about baptism, but having disrespect, laziness, towards the details of the book, and, ignorantly thinking you can persuade us/others, on the subject of baptism, weighing in, without having traced its origins.


Take your seat. We don't take you seriously.


A classic-again:

I am familiar with the OT, not an expert...

"Familiar" with the OT, and he is going to "splain" baptism to us dummy MAD folks.....?


Sure, Ricky.
 

turbosixx

New member
No, you don't, as you are changing your story, back peddling, side stepping, doing the hokey pokey, spinning "context"(which can be employed, carefully) on every other post, are sloppy, lazy, in your choice of words, in presenting your argument/premise. To wit, you argued:


Knock it off. That is what you asserted-you made it up.

And what was happening, at the Jordan River, when John the Baptist was baptizing?:

John's baptism was not something "new"-conversely, it was a ceremony thoroughly understood by those who read the scripture(or should have been understood-hence, the Lord Jesus Christ's piercing question to someone who should have understood: "...Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not of these things?"-John 3:10 KJV), and to whom he ministered.

Water baptism did not begin with John the Baptist. In the Holy Bible we are able to trace its development, and we discover that water baptism is a ceremonial cleansing pertaining exclusively to the kingdom promised to the nation Israel, and at river Jordan was "the initiation rights," for the kingdom of priests, comprised of the believing remnant of the nation Israel.
The only priesthood that will be recognized in the future on earth, during the millennial kingdom, will be from the nation of Israel-this has no reference to the Body Of Christ in this dispensation:


Survey...
" And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." Exodus 19:6 KJV

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." 1 Peter 2:5 KJV

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light...." 1 Peter 2:9 KJV

"But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves." Isaiah 61:6 KJV

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." Revelation 1:6 KJV

"And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." Rev. 5:10 KJV

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." Rev. 20:6 KJV








You can ask all you want, but I'm no Forest Gump, who falls for your MO on TOL-bait'nswitch, change the subject, create a moving target, move the goal posts. I stay on the topic presented, in an argument, and ignore your "hit and run's."

Talk to the hand. If you can't reply with an intelligent argument, don't bother because I won't respond. You're insults and bragging on yourself just prove your low level of intelligence and high level of insecurity.
 

Danoh

New member
His last conversion recorded, he baptized believers just as everyone else did. Why would he do it at all?

Might as well claim that Moses had preached Christ in the same way that John the Baptist had.

Oh, wait, you're only "familiar" with the OT.

Never mind. For clearly, one can not reason with an individual who is unaware of the many, many details you continually prove you are unaware of.

Not to put you down, rather to atttempt to point out to you your ever obvious reliance on your seemingly endless false positives.

Isaiah 8:20
 

turbosixx

New member
Might as well claim that Moses had preached Christ in the same way that John the Baptist had.

Oh, wait, you're only "familiar" with the OT.

Never mind. For clearly, one can not reason with an individual who is unaware of the many, many details you continually prove you are unaware of.

Not to put you down, rather to atttempt to point out to you your ever obvious reliance on your seemingly endless false positives.

Isaiah 8:20

IF Paul was sent not to baptize and baptism is not part of "his" gospel, for what reason did he repeatedly baptize believers just as Jesus instructed and just like everyone else?
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Talk to the hand.

What is that, Ricky? The 45th time you've spammed that kid stuff cliche?

If you can't reply with an intelligent argument, don't bother because I won't respond.

What is that, Ricky? The 46th time you've spammed that kid stuff cliche?You keep telling me that, and you respond, because I keep picking apart your disjointed "argument," that you slop like spaghetti.

And you will respond-insecure brats, like yourself, always do, coming back for more. But I will send you to the mat-again.

And I provide brilliant, intelligent, awe inspiring arguments, and have for years; don't confuse your lack of intelligence, and lack of reading comprehensions skills, for any possible shortfall on my part, in waxing eloquent, intelligent exposition of the scriptures, "connecting the dots," with chapter, verse.

Can you dig it?
You're insults and bragging on yourself just prove your low level of intelligence and high level of insecurity.

The old "accusation of hate...don't insult me...wounded soul...you are so insecure" routine, of course the above statement witnessing your insecurity, cry baby routine.

Grow up, and stay out of the way of the troops, kid, as the bible is a rough book, and war is rough.
 

Danoh

New member
IF Paul was sent not to baptize and baptism is not part of "his" gospel, for what reason did he repeatedly baptize believers just as Jesus instructed and just like everyone else?

Deal with the OT on water baptism, first, then you can bring that up - for us to correct you on it.

:chuckle:

Rom. 5:6-8
 

turbosixx

New member
Deal with the OT on water baptism, first, then you can bring that up - for us to correct you on it.

:chuckle:

Rom. 5:6-8

YOU CAN'T possibly answer it because it goes against what you're preaching. Going to the OT is a diversion. There is NO reason Paul should be baptizing anyone, just as Jesus instructed the 12, IF what you say is true.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame

Oh, wait, you're only "familiar" with the OT.

A classic, D.

Never mind. For clearly, one can not reason with an individual who is unaware of the many, many details you continually prove you are unaware of.

Bingo. He is going to set us straight on the doctrines of baptisms, but he is just "familiar" with the OT, from whence they originated.


That's akin to Fred Flintstone trying to teach us he about Christmas(B.C.-get it?)
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
There you go, TOL audience:



Pathetic.
If one does not have a firm grasp on the Old Testament, how could they possibly have an understanding of the things in the New Testament, which is BASED on the Old.

I just don't get it, why people would be so presumptuous as to think that the OT is no longer necessary.
 

Danoh

New member
YOU CAN'T possibly answer it because it goes against what you're preaching. Going to the OT is a diversion. There is NO reason Paul should be baptizing anyone, just as Jesus instructed the 12, IF what you say is true.

Unwittingly, you have just proven once more that you are unable to properly sort that out without the OT.

You, sir, have just pulled a Flintstones' Christmas - both kinds.

Hanna-Barberra would both be very proud of you.

:chuckle:

Rom. 5:6-8.
 

Danoh

New member
A classic, D.



Bingo. He is going to set us straight on the doctrines of baptisms, but he is just "familiar" with the OT, from whence they originated.


That's akin to Fred Flintstone trying to teach us he about Christmas(B.C.-get it?)

Man o man, all the fun ol Mayor STP is missing - at turbo's expense (though, by turbo's own hand).

:chuckle:

Sure miss STP.

Thanks for the humour, JW.

Rom. 5:6-8.
 

Danoh

New member
If one does not have a firm grasp on the Old Testament, how could they possibly have an understanding of the things in the New Testament, which is BASED on the Old.

I just don't get it, why people would be so presumptuous as to think that the OT is no longer necessary.

Exactly.

Rom. 5:6-8.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
If one does not have a firm grasp on the Old Testament, how could they possibly have an understanding of the things in the New Testament, which is BASED on the Old.

I just don't get it, why people would be so presumptuous as to think that the OT is no longer necessary.

Correct, JR, and they testify to the Lord Jesus Christ, the righteousness of God......:



John 5:39 KJV Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.




Romans 3:21 KJV
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;


Luke 24:44 KJV And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.




Psalm 40:7 KJV Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.



1 Corinthians 10 KJV

11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.




Romans 15 KJV


4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.


Vs.

Going to the OT is a diversion. .



Quite a contrast.
 

Danoh

New member
Correct, JR, and they testify to the Lord Jesus Christ, the righteousness of God......:



John 5:39 KJV Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.




Romans 3:21 KJV
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;


Luke 24:44 KJV And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.




Psalm 40:7 KJV Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.



1 Corinthians 10 KJV

11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.




Romans 15 KJV


4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.


Vs.





Quite a contrast.

Personally, I found his comment amusing - if there is anything most MADs have long since REPEATEDLY proven on TOL is that they know their Bibles from cover to cover a bit far more than just being "familiar" with any major part of it.

Hopefully he'll reflect on his nonsense, and get to reading at least the first five books of the Bible, to begin with, where much of what we have been pointing out to him is REPEATEDLY mentioned.

And people say we only focus on Romans thru Philemon - yeah, right.

Isaiah 8:20; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Personally, I found his comment amusing - if there is anything most MADs have long since REPEATEDLY proven on TOL is that they know their Bibles from cover to cover a bit far more than just being "familiar" with any major part of it.

Hopefully he'll reflect on his nonsense, and get to reading at least the first five books of the Bible, to begin with, where much of what we have been pointing out to him is REPEATEDLY mentioned.

And people say we only focus on Romans thru Philemon - yeah, right.

Isaiah 8:20; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17.

Well said. I spent years, way back in that "diversion" of Genesis, the "Seed Plot" of the "volume of the book," and I need to spend more time there, as there are gems/nuggets everywhere there, explaining, "making sense," of the rest of the book.


Romans 15 KJV


4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.


In the Book of Ruth, for eg.: did you know the LORD God's name is not once mentioned?

Fascinating, Jim! Why: To let us know, that He is still there, in control.


Who wrote this book?! Rhet. Q.

That turbosixx shore is an ornery fella-reckon he''s related to Ernest T., D?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top