ECT The Gospel Proper

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When it speaks of "circumcision" it clarifies that the circumcision is not the literal circumcision, but symbolic, with the phrase "with the circumcision made without hands." When it speaks of "baptism" it has no such disclaimer.
Not every symbolic reference in the Bible comes with a "Hey, this is symbolic" tag.

Ephesians 4:4-5 KJV
(4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
(5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Indeed, there is ONE baptism in the body of Christ and there is NO WATER associated with it.

1Co 12:13 KJV For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

THAT is the ONE BAPTISM.

Except you have been arguing that in Christ there are multiple baptisms... and multiple callings (a baptism and a calling for the Jews and a baptism and a calling for everyone else that is better than the Jews.)
If you cannot see the multiple baptisms throughout scripture, that would be explained by your problem with understanding the scripture.

Jesus was baptized in a river and described as coming out of the water as our example, the figure of baptism is likened to being buried and with the overwhelming of the old world with a flood.
Once AGAIN, you simply FORCE this meaning on the scripture. Scripture ITSELF never makes such a connection.

Your protest is belied by your words and actions. Mockery emoticons are indicative of hostility.
No, they are not. :wave2:
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
I said it belongs.

16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Just fyi, I'm going to quote here from the 'Catechism,' so that it's clear why I as a Catholic theologically, can say that Catholicism does not consider baptism to be necessary for salvation:

"The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit" (Jn3:5KJV). God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments."

Excerpted from Text 1257 (emphasis the bishops)​

The 'Catechism' goes into great depth about some examples of how people are saved, even without being baptized, in that same section.

Again this is just fyi. I'm not contending with you so much as clarifying why I hold to a different view, which really isn't very different practically speaking, but the Church imo does a good job of laying out reasonable exceptions to the rule, which remains a rule by which she has always tried to abide. The exceptions prove the rule, in this case; they don't nullify it.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Indeed, there is ONE baptism in the body of Christ and there is NO WATER associated with it.

1Co 12:13 KJV For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

THAT is the ONE BAPTISM.

So what type of baptism is Paul speaking of here?

1 Corinthians 1:14-16 KJV
(14) I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
(15) Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
(16) And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

And into what body are these Gentiles baptized here?

Acts 10:46-48 KJV
(46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
(47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
(48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

We are told that in Christ we have ONE baptism. We are told in multiple previous places that this baptism involves water in its physical aspect. If you say that other mentions of baptism are instead a type that forsakes (forbids?) water then you have a contradiction of symbolism at the least.

Spiritually, this question seems to touch on the story of Naaman:

2 Kings 5:10-13 KJV
(10) And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean.
(11) But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper.
(12) Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage.
(13) And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?

Why the phobia (or hatred) of water?
 

john w

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I'm not totally sure I understand your point. IF it's that the gift of knowledge would fade away, I agree. For us today, knowledge is found in the scriptures. They are the word of God.

Oh. It's your problem that you do not understand my point.
 

Right Divider

Body part
So what type of baptism is Paul speaking of here?

1 Corinthians 1:14-16 KJV
(14) I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
(15) Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
(16) And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
Water.

And into what body are these Gentiles baptized here?

Acts 10:46-48 KJV
(46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
(47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
(48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
They were righteous gentiles that blessed Israel. Pay attention to the details.

Act 10:1-2 KJV There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, (2) A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Guess who "the people" are. Nothing new there... no body of Christ there.

We are told that in Christ we have ONE baptism. We are told in multiple previous places that this baptism involves water in its physical aspect. If you say that other mentions of baptism are instead a type that forsakes (forbids?) water then you have a contradiction of symbolism at the least.
Go ahead and get wet if you like. It has NO PLACE in the body of Christ.

Spiritually, this question seems to touch on the story of Naaman:

2 Kings 5:10-13 KJV
(10) And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean.
(11) But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper.
(12) Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage.
(13) And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?
Israel had MANY "washings".

Heb 9:10 KJV Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

"washings" there is "baptismos".

Why the phobia (or hatred) of water?
Now you're a liar.
 
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Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Water.
Spoiler



They were righteous gentiles that blessed Israel. Pay attention to the details.

Act 10:1-2 KJV There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, (2) A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Guess who "the people" are. Nothing new there... no body of Christ there.


Go ahead and get wet if you like. It has NO PLACE in the body of Christ.


Israel had MANY "washings".

Heb 9:10 KJV Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

"washings" there is "baptismos".


Now you're a liar.
You've got Pate's 'quote tags' in all but the first quote here, fyi.
 

Crucifer

BANNED
Banned
Baptism involves water, it always has been.
Does it need to be 'full immersion'? Not necessarily- the early Christians did it with buckets and ladles as it often had to be done away from certain eyes, and virtually no Christian had any qualms about it.

But nonetheless, it has always been done in some fashion of water, the idea of baptism was never commanded to be anything else, certainly not trivialized into a 'symbolic' thing not even to be practiced traditionally in a church.
Being lazy and full of hubris is all neglecting baptism is, leavened with notions of the Bible having strange, contradictory truths rather than being one singular truth basically no saint in Christian history has ever adopted period beyond modern day 'right dividers'.
More like 'right wingers who divide' :chuckle:
 

Right Divider

Body part
Baptism involves water, it always has been.
Mat 20:22-23 KJV But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. (23) And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

You cannot assume that a verse or passage is talking about water baptism. You have to read it all IN ITS CONTEXT.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
It has been my observation that those that willingly humble themselves unto baptism are generally more agreeable to the fruits of the spirit than those that spitefully argue against the ordinance.

By that argument, how about you tithing,another requirement, ordinance, of the law, like water baptism, humbly, say to my favorite charity, me, 25% of your net worth, so that you are more agreeable to the fruits of the spirit?
 

Right Divider

Body part
It has been my observation that those that willingly humble themselves unto baptism are generally more agreeable to the fruits of the spirit than those that spitefully argue against the ordinance.
It has been my observation that people believe whatever they want to believe and then feel that they are the humble, gentle folks that have all the best qualities. While those that disagree with them are arrogant and evil.
 

turbosixx

New member
I'm going to quote here from the 'Catechism,'

Thanks for the clarification. I suggest you have a different view because your source of truth is not scripture. Why quote from anything other than the bible?

1 Pt. 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
 

turbosixx

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Baptism in the OT

There is not a single ordinance for immersion of any person, whether great or small. The person was never applied to the element, but the element, whether blood, oil, or water, was invariably applied to the man, or part of the man. In all the figurative language in scripture, we find many figures of sprinkling, ablution, and affusions, to picture the LORD God's methods of purifications, but never any figure of immersion, whether in the OT or NT. Only tradition finds immersion, but not sound exegesis. Immersion is a tradition, an assertion w/o proof, and thus is merely an assumption.

The first passover was a sprinkling on 3 places, and, from that day on, for Israel, sprinkling became a symbol of the application of the blood of deliverance. This is true to such an extent that Hebrew 9:9-14 KJV even the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ is referred to as a sprinkling.

The blood of sprinkling of the Israelites: Exodus 24:6- 8 KJV; Exodus 29:16 KJV, Exodus 29:20 KJV; Lev. 1:5 KJV,Lev. 1:11 KJV; Lev. 3:2 KJV, Lev. 3:8 KJV, Lev. 3:13 KJV; Lev. 7:2 KJV, Lev. 7:14 KJV; and on and on....

The water separation :

"Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him. .....But the man that shall be unclean, and shall not purify himself, that soul shall be cut off from among the congregation, because he hath defiled the sanctuary of the LORD: the water of separation hath not been sprinkled upon him; he is unclean." Numbers 19:13 KJV, Numbers 19:20 KJV

Washings with water:

-to pour water over the surface, to rinse-it never means immersion. Hands were washed by pouring water over them..

"But the earthen vessel wherein it is sodden shall be broken: and if it be sodden in a brasen pot, it shall be both scoured, and rinsed in water." Lev. 6:28 KJV

"And whomsoever he toucheth that hath the issue, and hath not rinsed his hands in water, he shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And the vessel of earth, that he toucheth which hath the issue, shall be broken: and every vessel of wood shall be rinsed in water." Lev. 15:11-12 KJV "Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it. Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it? Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it. " Ez. 13:11-14 KJV

The word "baptism in the OT stands for all the ceremonial sprinklings, pourings, and washings:


"Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." Hebrews 6:2 KJV

"Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation." Hebrews 9:10 KJV

"And upon whatsoever any of them, when they are dead, doth fall, it shall be unclean; whether it be any vessel of wood, or raiment, or skin, or sack, whatsoever vessel it be, wherein any work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the even; so it shall be cleansed." Lev. 11:32 KJV

This is the only reference to immersion in the OT-everywhere else it is sprinklings, pourings, washings.


But notice:

-it refers to things, not persons
-the immersion was not just for a moment, but for a day until evening
-it was for the purpose of making the unclean clean
-the immersion was purely ritual
-the immersion was entirely for the LORD God's earthly people, the nation Israel

The immersion of one person by another was entirely unknown to Israel. The "modern" rite of immersion finds no proof or precedent in the OT scripture..

The OT does recognize a future "baptism" by sprinkling-the unique and unprecedented sprinkling of the Holy Spirit, flowing from the throne of the LORD God:

"Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider." Is. 52:13-15 KJV

"For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Ez. 36:24-27 KJV

That is, the Holy Spirit upon all flesh, per Joel 2:28 KJV, and Acts 2:17 KJV :


"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:.." Joel 2:28 KJV

" And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:...:" Acts 2:17 KJV

The astonishing result is that Israel and the nations, including all animal life(explaining the future no fear of animals in the millennial kingdom), will become filled with the Spirit. In that future day, the so-called "Great Commission" of Matthew 28:19-20 KJV will be literally fulfilled-the future Spirit baptism.

Self "immersion" was an invention of the Jewish scribes, and it is foreign to the law of Moses. The immersions had their origin in unbelieving Israel, the Jewish leadership, after they rejected their true LORD God. They not only rejected the Messiah, their Messiah,the Christ, but also the scriptures that "typified" the Messiah/Christ and His Spirit, because the sprinkling of the water, blood, and oil, pointed to the application of the Messiah's blood and Spirit. The OT testifies that in the sprinkling or pouring, the recipients were passive, while in self-immersion, the self-righteous man was active. The sprinkling pictured the LORD God's work, not man's, as the LORD God said:

"For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses." Is. 44:3-4 KJV

In the law, there is no immersion, or even a figure of immersion-it was a tradition added by the apostate Jewish leadership, the uninspired oral law of self-righteous Talmudic Judaism. "Immersion" is a Talmudic word, but not a biblical word. The scriptures, in contrast, abound with figures of sprinkling and pouring. Any immersion was of objects, not persons, and even with objects, the defiled object was to be put into water. The sprinklings were self washings=designated as "baptisms." The word water occurs over 500 times in the "volume of the book," but not in a single case does it refer to, or even suggest, immersion.

There were washings in the OT but we are in a different dispensation.
In your understanding, what method of water baptism did Paul perform?
 

turbosixx

New member
I would hope baptism is not an requirement for salvation.

Do you believe Jesus?
Mk. 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Out of the crowd who listened to Peter, which ones were added?
Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
 
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