ECT The Gospel Proper

[Right Divider]

The known meaning of the word proves that "water baptism" requires "dunking." There's no need to "prove" anything past this. The burden of proof lies upon the person seeking to disprove the known definition. "To be fully wet" does not happen unless one is submerged, to be "whelmed" does not happen with underwhelming force or coverage.

G907
βαπτίζω
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.

I've already shown that many BAPTISMS involve NO WATER at all.

Adding to this, when baptism is mentioned throughout scripture it uses terms like "going into the water" and "coming out of the water" and the source of the water even involves rivers. See the instance of Christ's baptism by John, the baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch. Baptism obviously requires much water.

Once AGAIN, you ASSUME dunking. Water always goes to the lowest point as it is heavier than air.

When those folks in the river were baptized, it's just a likely that they were up to their ankles and being sprinkled. The various washings (baptisms) of the old covenant law is what they knew and those were ALL sprinkling.

So this "proof" of yours is no proof at all.

John 3:23 KJV
(23) And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

No matter how much water.... this is NOT proof of dunking.... It is still your ASSUMPTION.

Our baptism is symbolic of burial, and burial does not mean covering only part of the body.

Nowhere does SCRIPTURE say that "our baptism is symbolic of burial". AGAIN.... YOUR ASSUMPTION.

Colossians 2:12 KJV
(12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

BOTH the burial and baptism HERE are SYMBOLIC.

The meaning of the word means immersed, and the supporting context of the New Testament is in agreement with this meaning. If you are going to argue against scripture, you are the one that needs to present evidence. Why do you have this seemingly irrational aversion to baptism? I cannot say.

:rotfl:

 

[john w]

Romans 6:4-5 KJV
(4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
(5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Pay attention to the details of the bible, a book of details....


Buried with him, not like him.

 

[Rosenritter]

I've already shown that many BAPTISMS involve NO WATER at all.

If you mean if the word "baptism" is used with symbolic reference to an actual baptism.. that's a meaningless "showing." Any word in English can be used with symbolic reference to something else. Run, crawl, life, death, jump, bread, lamb, lion, ... and of course the metaphor is in reference to these aspects. No, you haven't shown that actual literal baptism is without water.

Nowhere does SCRIPTURE say that "our baptism is symbolic of burial". AGAIN.... YOUR ASSUMPTION.

Colossians 2:12 KJV
(12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

No, that would be from basic reading of scripture where it speaks of baptism. In 1 Peter baptism is also likened to the flood that wiped away sin in the days of Noah. Should we suppose that flood was only a "sprinkling?" Why didn't Peter speak of the dew that watered the ground in Eden then?

Would you be willing to explain the reason for your continued hostility concerning literal baptism?

 

[Right Divider]

Colossians 2:12 KJV
(12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

BOTH the burial AND the baptism are symbolic in that verse. That means that ONE is NOT symbolic OF THE OTHER.

Would you be willing to explain the reason for your continued hostility concerning literal baptism?

I'm not hostile concerning "literal" baptism.

 

[Rosenritter]

BOTH the burial AND the baptism are symbolic in that verse. That means that ONE is NOT symbolic OF THE OTHER.

When it speaks of "circumcision" it clarifies that the circumcision is not the literal circumcision, but symbolic, with the phrase "with the circumcision made without hands." When it speaks of "baptism" it has no such disclaimer.

Ephesians 4:4-5 KJV
(4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
(5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Except you have been arguing that in Christ there are multiple baptisms... and multiple callings (a baptism and a calling for the Jews and a baptism and a calling for everyone else that is better than the Jews.) Jesus was baptized in a river and described as coming out of the water as our example, the figure of baptism is likened to being buried and with the overwhelming of the old world with a flood.

I'm not hostile concerning "literal" baptism.

Your protest is belied by your words and actions. Mockery emoticons are indicative of hostility.

 

[john w]

Finding an instance where the symbolic meaning of the symbol is applied does not eliminate the original and actual application elsewhere. Surely you understand logical reasoning well enough to acknowledge that (or maybe not?)

Acts 10:47 KJV
(47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Acts 8:36 KJV
(36) And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Is your objection to the water, or the full immersion in water? Because the baptism obviously was:

1) literal
2) with water
3) requiring volume that exceeded drinking water

Is your objection to the water, or the full immersion in water?

Baptism in the OT

There is not a single ordinance for immersion of any person, whether great or small. The person was never applied to the element, but the element, whether blood, oil, or water, was invariably applied to the man, or part of the man. In all the figurative language in scripture, we find many figures of sprinkling, ablution, and affusions, to picture the LORD God's methods of purifications, but never any figure of immersion, whether in the OT or NT. Only tradition finds immersion, but not sound exegesis. Immersion is a tradition, an assertion w/o proof, and thus is merely an assumption.

The first passover was a sprinkling on 3 places, and, from that day on, for Israel, sprinkling became a symbol of the application of the blood of deliverance. This is true to such an extent that Hebrew 9:9-14 KJV even the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ is referred to as a sprinkling.

The blood of sprinkling of the Israelites: Exodus 24:6- 8 KJV; Exodus 29:16 KJV, Exodus 29:20 KJV; Lev. 1:5 KJV,Lev. 1:11 KJV; Lev. 3:2 KJV, Lev. 3:8 KJV, Lev. 3:13 KJV; Lev. 7:2 KJV, Lev. 7:14 KJV; and on and on....

The water separation :

"Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him. .....But the man that shall be unclean, and shall not purify himself, that soul shall be cut off from among the congregation, because he hath defiled the sanctuary of the LORD: the water of separation hath not been sprinkled upon him; he is unclean." Numbers 19:13 KJV, Numbers 19:20 KJV

Washings with water:

-to pour water over the surface, to rinse-it never means immersion. Hands were washed by pouring water over them..

"But the earthen vessel wherein it is sodden shall be broken: and if it be sodden in a brasen pot, it shall be both scoured, and rinsed in water." Lev. 6:28 KJV

"And whomsoever he toucheth that hath the issue, and hath not rinsed his hands in water, he shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And the vessel of earth, that he toucheth which hath the issue, shall be broken: and every vessel of wood shall be rinsed in water." Lev. 15:11-12 KJV "Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it. Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it? Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it. " Ez. 13:11-14 KJV

The word "baptism in the OT stands for all the ceremonial sprinklings, pourings, and washings:


"Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." Hebrews 6:2 KJV

"Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation." Hebrews 9:10 KJV

"And upon whatsoever any of them, when they are dead, doth fall, it shall be unclean; whether it be any vessel of wood, or raiment, or skin, or sack, whatsoever vessel it be, wherein any work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the even; so it shall be cleansed." Lev. 11:32 KJV

This is the only reference to immersion in the OT-everywhere else it is sprinklings, pourings, washings.


But notice:

-it refers to things, not persons
-the immersion was not just for a moment, but for a day until evening
-it was for the purpose of making the unclean clean
-the immersion was purely ritual
-the immersion was entirely for the LORD God's earthly people, the nation Israel

The immersion of one person by another was entirely unknown to Israel. The "modern" rite of immersion finds no proof or precedent in the OT scripture..

The OT does recognize a future "baptism" by sprinkling-the unique and unprecedented sprinkling of the Holy Spirit, flowing from the throne of the LORD God:

"Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider." Is. 52:13-15 KJV

"For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Ez. 36:24-27 KJV

That is, the Holy Spirit upon all flesh, per Joel 2:28 KJV, and Acts 2:17 KJV :


"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:.." Joel 2:28 KJV

" And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:...:" Acts 2:17 KJV

The astonishing result is that Israel and the nations, including all animal life(explaining the future no fear of animals in the millennial kingdom), will become filled with the Spirit. In that future day, the so-called "Great Commission" of Matthew 28:19-20 KJV will be literally fulfilled-the future Spirit baptism.

Self "immersion" was an invention of the Jewish scribes, and it is foreign to the law of Moses. The immersions had their origin in unbelieving Israel, the Jewish leadership, after they rejected their true LORD God. They not only rejected the Messiah, their Messiah,the Christ, but also the scriptures that "typified" the Messiah/Christ and His Spirit, because the sprinkling of the water, blood, and oil, pointed to the application of the Messiah's blood and Spirit. The OT testifies that in the sprinkling or pouring, the recipients were passive, while in self-immersion, the self-righteous man was active. The sprinkling pictured the LORD God's work, not man's, as the LORD God said:

"For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses." Is. 44:3-4 KJV

In the law, there is no immersion, or even a figure of immersion-it was a tradition added by the apostate Jewish leadership, the uninspired oral law of self-righteous Talmudic Judaism. "Immersion" is a Talmudic word, but not a biblical word. The scriptures, in contrast, abound with figures of sprinkling and pouring. Any immersion was of objects, not persons, and even with objects, the defiled object was to be put into water. The sprinklings were self washings=designated as "baptisms." The word water occurs over 500 times in the "volume of the book," but not in a single case does it refer to, or even suggest, immersion.

 

[Danoh]

To what exactly is your objection? You are opposed to being plunged beneath water? You seem to be arguing in ignorance of the word meaning.

G907
βαπτίζω
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.

You might as well be arguing that "fly" do not invoke "fully in the air" or that "dig" doesn't involve "into the earth." What I would like to know (that I do not think you will tell me) is why you are so emotionally opposed to baptism.

You just now further made his argument for him - for the definition you posted is from the traditions of men.

As is often the case with definitions found in books based on the traditions of men.

Rom. 5:6-8 - in each our stead.

 

[Danoh]

Baptism in the OT

There is not a single ordinance for immersion of any person, whether great or small. The person was never applied to the element, but the element, whether blood, oil, or water, was invariably applied to the man, or part of the man. In all the figurative language in scripture, we find many figures of sprinkling, ablution, and affusions, to picture the LORD God's methods of purifications, but never any figure of immersion, whether in the OT or NT. Only tradition finds immersion, but not sound exegesis. Immersion is a tradition, an assertion w/o proof, and thus is merely an assumption.

The first passover was a sprinkling on 3 places, and, from that day on, for Israel, sprinkling became a symbol of the application of the blood of deliverance. This is true to such an extent that Hebrew 9:9-14 KJV even the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ is referred to as a sprinkling.

The blood of sprinkling of the Israelites: Exodus 24:6- 8 KJV; Exodus 29:16 KJV, Exodus 29:20 KJV; Lev. 1:5 KJV,Lev. 1:11 KJV; Lev. 3:2 KJV, Lev. 3:8 KJV, Lev. 3:13 KJV; Lev. 7:2 KJV, Lev. 7:14 KJV; and on and on....

The water separation :

"Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him. .....But the man that shall be unclean, and shall not purify himself, that soul shall be cut off from among the congregation, because he hath defiled the sanctuary of the LORD: the water of separation hath not been sprinkled upon him; he is unclean." Numbers 19:13 KJV, Numbers 19:20 KJV

Washings with water:

-to pour water over the surface, to rinse-it never means immersion. Hands were washed by pouring water over them..

"But the earthen vessel wherein it is sodden shall be broken: and if it be sodden in a brasen pot, it shall be both scoured, and rinsed in water." Lev. 6:28 KJV

"And whomsoever he toucheth that hath the issue, and hath not rinsed his hands in water, he shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And the vessel of earth, that he toucheth which hath the issue, shall be broken: and every vessel of wood shall be rinsed in water." Lev. 15:11-12 KJV "Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it. Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it? Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it. " Ez. 13:11-14 KJV

The word "baptism in the OT stands for all the ceremonial sprinklings, pourings, and washings:


"Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." Hebrews 6:2 KJV

"Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation." Hebrews 9:10 KJV

"And upon whatsoever any of them, when they are dead, doth fall, it shall be unclean; whether it be any vessel of wood, or raiment, or skin, or sack, whatsoever vessel it be, wherein any work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the even; so it shall be cleansed." Lev. 11:32 KJV

This is the only reference to immersion in the OT-everywhere else it is sprinklings, pourings, washings.


But notice:

-it refers to things, not persons
-the immersion was not just for a moment, but for a day until evening
-it was for the purpose of making the unclean clean
-the immersion was purely ritual
-the immersion was entirely for the LORD God's earthly people, the nation Israel

The immersion of one person by another was entirely unknown to Israel. The "modern" rite of immersion finds no proof or precedent in the OT scripture..

The OT does recognize a future "baptism" by sprinkling-the unique and unprecedented sprinkling of the Holy Spirit, flowing from the throne of the LORD God:

"Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider." Is. 52:13-15 KJV

"For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Ez. 36:24-27 KJV

That is, the Holy Spirit upon all flesh, per Joel 2:28 KJV, and Acts 2:17 KJV :


"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:.." Joel 2:28 KJV

" And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:...:" Acts 2:17 KJV

The astonishing result is that Israel and the nations, including all animal life(explaining the future no fear of animals in the millennial kingdom), will become filled with the Spirit. In that future day, the so-called "Great Commission" of Matthew 28:19-20 KJV will be literally fulfilled-the future Spirit baptism.

Self "immersion" was an invention of the Jewish scribes, and it is foreign to the law of Moses. The immersions had their origin in unbelieving Israel, the Jewish leadership, after they rejected their true LORD God. They not only rejected the Messiah, their Messiah,the Christ, but also the scriptures that "typified" the Messiah/Christ and His Spirit, because the sprinkling of the water, blood, and oil, pointed to the application of the Messiah's blood and Spirit. The OT testifies that in the sprinkling or pouring, the recipients were passive, while in self-immersion, the self-righteous man was active. The sprinkling pictured the LORD God's work, not man's, as the LORD God said:

"For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses." Is. 44:3-4 KJV

In the law, there is no immersion, or even a figure of immersion-it was a tradition added by the apostate Jewish leadership, the uninspired oral law of self-righteous Talmudic Judaism. "Immersion" is a Talmudic word, but not a biblical word. The scriptures, in contrast, abound with figures of sprinkling and pouring. Any immersion was of objects, not persons, and even with objects, the defiled object was to be put into water. The sprinklings were self washings=designated as "baptisms." The word water occurs over 500 times in the "volume of the book," but not in a single case does it refer to, or even suggest, immersion.

Yep.

:thumb:

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[Idolater]

Baptism

Spoiler

in the OT

There is not a single ordinance for immersion of any person, whether great or small. The person was never applied to the element, but the element, whether blood, oil, or water, was invariably applied to the man, or part of the man. In all the figurative language in scripture, we find many figures of sprinkling, ablution, and affusions, to picture the LORD God's methods of purifications, but never any figure of immersion, whether in the OT or NT. Only tradition finds immersion, but not sound exegesis. Immersion is a tradition, an assertion w/o proof, and thus is merely an assumption.

The first passover was a sprinkling on 3 places, and, from that day on, for Israel, sprinkling became a symbol of the application of the blood of deliverance. This is true to such an extent that Hebrew 9:9-14 KJV even the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ is referred to as a sprinkling.

The blood of sprinkling of the Israelites: Exodus 24:6- 8 KJV; Exodus 29:16 KJV, Exodus 29:20 KJV; Lev. 1:5 KJV,Lev. 1:11 KJV; Lev. 3:2 KJV, Lev. 3:8 KJV, Lev. 3:13 KJV; Lev. 7:2 KJV, Lev. 7:14 KJV; and on and on....

The water separation :

"Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him. .....But the man that shall be unclean, and shall not purify himself, that soul shall be cut off from among the congregation, because he hath defiled the sanctuary of the LORD: the water of separation hath not been sprinkled upon him; he is unclean." Numbers 19:13 KJV, Numbers 19:20 KJV

Washings with water:

-to pour water over the surface, to rinse-it never means immersion. Hands were washed by pouring water over them..

"But the earthen vessel wherein it is sodden shall be broken: and if it be sodden in a brasen pot, it shall be both scoured, and rinsed in water." Lev. 6:28 KJV

"And whomsoever he toucheth that hath the issue, and hath not rinsed his hands in water, he shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And the vessel of earth, that he toucheth which hath the issue, shall be broken: and every vessel of wood shall be rinsed in water." Lev. 15:11-12 KJV "Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it. Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it? Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it. " Ez. 13:11-14 KJV

The word "baptism in the OT stands for all the ceremonial sprinklings, pourings, and washings:


"Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." Hebrews 6:2 KJV

"Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation." Hebrews 9:10 KJV

"And upon whatsoever any of them, when they are dead, doth fall, it shall be unclean; whether it be any vessel of wood, or raiment, or skin, or sack, whatsoever vessel it be, wherein any work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the even; so it shall be cleansed." Lev. 11:32 KJV

This is the only reference to immersion in the OT-everywhere else it is sprinklings, pourings, washings.


But notice:

-it refers to things, not persons
-the immersion was not just for a moment, but for a day until evening
-it was for the purpose of making the unclean clean
-the immersion was purely ritual
-the immersion was entirely for the LORD God's earthly people, the nation Israel

The immersion of one person by another was entirely unknown to Israel. The "modern" rite of immersion finds no proof or precedent in the OT scripture..

The OT does recognize a future "baptism" by sprinkling-the unique and unprecedented sprinkling of the Holy Spirit, flowing from the throne of the LORD God:

"Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider." Is. 52:13-15 KJV

"For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Ez. 36:24-27 KJV

That is, the Holy Spirit upon all flesh, per Joel 2:28 KJV, and Acts 2:17 KJV :


"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:.." Joel 2:28 KJV

" And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:...:" Acts 2:17 KJV

The astonishing result is that Israel and the nations, including all animal life(explaining the future no fear of animals in the millennial kingdom), will become filled with the Spirit. In that future day, the so-called "Great Commission" of Matthew 28:19-20 KJV will be literally fulfilled-the future Spirit baptism.

Self "immersion" was an invention of the Jewish scribes, and it is foreign to the law of Moses. The immersions had their origin in unbelieving Israel, the Jewish leadership, after they rejected their true LORD God. They not only rejected the Messiah, their Messiah,the Christ, but also the scriptures that "typified" the Messiah/Christ and His Spirit, because the sprinkling of the water, blood, and oil, pointed to the application of the Messiah's blood and Spirit. The OT testifies that in the sprinkling or pouring, the recipients were passive, while in self-immersion, the self-righteous man was active. The sprinkling pictured the LORD God's work, not man's, as the LORD God said:

"For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses." Is. 44:3-4 KJV

In the law, there is no immersion, or even a figure of immersion-it was a tradition added by the apostate Jewish leadership, the uninspired oral law of self-righteous Talmudic Judaism. "Immersion" is a Talmudic word, but not a biblical word. The scriptures, in contrast, abound with figures of sprinkling and pouring. Any immersion was of objects, not persons, and even with objects, the defiled object was to be put into water. The sprinklings were self washings=designated as "baptisms." The word water occurs over 500 times in the "volume of the book," but not in a single case does it refer to, or even suggest, immersion.

I'm missing something. Is someone itt arguing that baptism is required to be saved, and that this belongs in the OP statement of the 'Gospel Proper,' or is this a sidetrack? 'Nothing wrong with a good sidetrack, but I wish to clarify.

 

[Rosenritter]

I'm missing something. Is someone it arguing that baptism is required to be saved, and that this belongs in the OP statement of the 'Gospel Proper,' or is this a sidetrack? 'Nothing wrong with a good sidetrack, but I wish to clarify.

Looks like a sidetrack...

 

[john w]

I'm missing something. Is someone itt arguing that baptism is required to be saved, and that this belongs in the OP statement of the 'Gospel Proper,' or is this a sidetrack? 'Nothing wrong with a good sidetrack, but I wish to clarify.

Being the great, feared, Rifleman, one of the most respected gunslingers on TOL, and one of the most humblest, I typically ignore the noise, and address arguments made,such as this "immersion" jazz, and stay on my topic; thus I am not the best candidate to whom you addressed your question. That's just the way I roll.

Can you dig it?

 

[turbosixx]

You've before said and I just want to reiterate, that you believe that Christ's promises about 'the Spirit of truth' and all that He would do, were made only to the Apostles, and not to all individual members of the Body of Christ, and I think that's an important foothold in your honest and faithful pursuit of the truth, and I wish you luck in that pursuit.

Thanks.

Yes, I believe the promise of the Holy Spirit was given to the apostles. When we read what they wrote, we are therefore guided by the Holy Spirit. Now, I do also believe with the laying of the apostles hands some were given the Spirit of knowledge but it's my understanding that was for building up of the local congregation. It is my understanding that the gift of Holy Spirit guidance into all truth was not given to all Christians.

 

[Danoh]

...

G907
βαπτίζω
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.

Adding to this, when baptism is mentioned throughout scripture it uses terms like "going into the water" and "coming out of the water" and the source of the water even involves rivers. See the instance of Christ's baptism by John, the baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch. Baptism obviously requires much water.

John 3:23 KJV
(23) And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized...

Nope.

For unless they were drinking the water, and that, in gallon loads per person, there would have been no need for much water.

What the passage is talking about was that the area of water was large enough, and wide enough for both groups bring able to baptize their converts.

Notice...

"And John ALSO WAS BAPTIZING in Aenon near to Salim, BECAUSE there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized."

As for the mode of water baptizing?

A reed of hyssop was used, for sprinkling...

Numbers 19:18 And a clean person shall take hyssop, and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it upon the tent, and upon all the vessels, and upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched a bone, or one slain, or one dead, or a grave: 19:19 And the clean person shall sprinkle upon the unclean on the third day, and on the seventh day: and on the seventh day he shall purify himself, and wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and shall be clean at even. 19:20 But the man that shall be unclean, and shall not purify himself, that soul shall be cut off from among the congregation, because he hath defiled the sanctuary of the LORD: the water of separation hath not been sprinkled upon him; he is unclean.

Which is why we later read...

Luke 7:24 And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

7:25 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts. 7:26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet. 7:27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

WITH, not IN the baptism of John.

Which reminds one of...

John 1:22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. 1:24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.

1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; 1:27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

WITH water, not IN water.

But, have it your way...

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[7djengo7]

...the Lord was being literal when He said, "This is My body," and, "This is My blood;" not a symbol, and not figurative.

Now, was Paul being literal when he said:

For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come[?]

Paul said "bread", didn't he? Yeah, he did. But, you don't want to take what he said literally, do you, since he said "bread", and not "Jesus' body"?

He didn't say

For as often as ye eat Jesus' body...

He said

For as often as ye eat this bread...

So, why do you refuse to take the Paul the Apostle literally?

Also, when Paul said

...and drink this cup...

you refuse to take him literally. He said "cup", didn't he? Yeah, he did. He didn't say "blood"; he didn't say:

...and drink this blood...

In fact, he didn't even say

...and drink the contents of this cup...

Why do you refuse to take Paul's words literally?

 

[john w]

Thanks.

Yes, I believe the promise of the Holy Spirit was given to the apostles. When we read what they wrote, we are therefore guided by the Holy Spirit. Now, I do also believe with the laying of the apostles hands some were given the Spirit of knowledge but it's my understanding that was for building up of the local congregation. It is my understanding that the gift of Holy Spirit guidance into all truth was not given to all Christians.

One more time, clearing up the fog...


Acts 5, and the inevitable consequences of failing to rightly divide the word of truth, per the 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV command:

Peter and “the 11” were promised by the Lord Jesus Christ:


"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26 KJV

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13 KJV


"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost." John 20:22 KJV

"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." Matthew 13:11 KJV

"Boot Camp" for 40 days, taught by the Lord Jesus Christ:

"To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:... Acts 1:3 KJV


Realized at Pentecost:

"And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Acts 1:4-5 KJV


"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:4 KJV

"This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." Acts 2:32-33


"And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness." Acts 4:31 KJV


(vs. Paul's instruction in this dispensation: "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;..." Ephesians 5:18 KJV)

And this explains what was occurring in Acts 5 , i.e., how did Peter know?:

"But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things. " Acts 5:1-11 KJV


Peter knew, from the miraculous gifts given by the Holy Spirit, "the power on high"(miraculous gifts, including healing, prophesying, tongues,"word of knowledge", raise the dead.......) he and others had received(as promised by the Lord Jesus Christ), that Ananias had "kept back part of the price of the land." This is "the word of knowledge" Paul references:

"For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit." 1Cor. 12:8 KJV


"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away." 1 Cor. 13:8 KJV(this "knowledge" here is the miraculous gift of the word of knowledge, that Peter had in Acts 5, and which Paul was referring to above; obviously, knowledge will not vanish away, but only the miraculous gift of knowledge).


Peter was carrying out the instructions given him by the Lord Jesus Christ "to a tee", through the miraculous spiritual gifts given through the Holy Spirit.

Can believers in this dispensation have the “power” Peter had in early Acts?


Oh, yes...watch the Pat Roberton/CBN circus act, " I see a man in Mayberry, NC., with a tumor being removed...Claim your miracle today!!!!..Pahraaaaaaaaaaaaaaayz Gaaaaaaaaaaawd."

Charlatans....We are not going back to Pentecost, despite protests to the contrary....It will come again, however, when the LORD God resumes the prophetic program, including the supernatural sign gifts.....mainly dealing with the nation Israel, who are a "sign people."

 

[turbosixx]

One more time, clearing up the fog...


Acts 5, and the inevitable consequences of failing to rightly divide the word of truth, per the 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV command:

Peter and “the 11” were promised by the Lord Jesus Christ:


"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26 KJV

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13 KJV


"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost." John 20:22 KJV

"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." Matthew 13:11 KJV

"Boot Camp" for 40 days, taught by the Lord Jesus Christ:

"To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:... Acts 1:3 KJV


Realized at Pentecost:

"And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Acts 1:4-5 KJV


"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:4 KJV

"This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." Acts 2:32-33


"And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness." Acts 4:31 KJV


(vs. Paul's instruction in this dispensation: "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;..." Ephesians 5:18 KJV)

And this explains what was occurring in Acts 5 , i.e., how did Peter know?:

"But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things. " Acts 5:1-11 KJV


Peter knew, from the miraculous gifts given by the Holy Spirit, "the power on high"(miraculous gifts, including healing, prophesying, tongues,"word of knowledge", raise the dead.......) he and others had received(as promised by the Lord Jesus Christ), that Ananias had "kept back part of the price of the land." This is "the word of knowledge" Paul references:

"For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit." 1Cor. 12:8 KJV


"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away." 1 Cor. 13:8 KJV(this "knowledge" here is the miraculous gift of the word of knowledge, that Peter had in Acts 5, and which Paul was referring to above; obviously, knowledge will not vanish away, but only the miraculous gift of knowledge).


Peter was carrying out the instructions given him by the Lord Jesus Christ "to a tee", through the miraculous spiritual gifts given through the Holy Spirit.

Can believers in this dispensation have the “power” Peter had in early Acts?


Oh, yes...watch the Pat Roberton/CBN circus act, " I see a man in Mayberry, NC., with a tumor being removed...Claim your miracle today!!!!..Pahraaaaaaaaaaaaaaayz Gaaaaaaaaaaawd."

Charlatans....We are not going back to Pentecost, despite protests to the contrary....It will come again, however, when the LORD God resumes the prophetic program, including the supernatural sign gifts.....mainly dealing with the nation Israel, who are a "sign people."

I'm not totally sure I understand your point. IF it's that the gift of knowledge would fade away, I agree. For us today, knowledge is found in the scriptures. They are the word of God.

 

[Rosenritter]

Nope.

For unless they were drinking the water, and that, in gallon loads per person, there would have been no need for much water.

What the passage is talking about was that the area of water was large enough, and wide enough for both groups bring able to baptize their converts.

Notice...

"And John ALSO WAS BAPTIZING in Aenon near to Salim, BECAUSE there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized."

Your response isn't coherent. He wouldn't need much water unless they were drinking it? You can deny that they needed much water all you like, but it's the gospel itself that says that he needed much water, and it said that he needed the much water for baptizing, not for drinking gallons.

 

[Idolater]

Being the great, feared, Rifleman, one of the most respected gunslingers on TOL, and one of the most humblest, I typically ignore the noise, and address arguments made,such as this "immersion" jazz, and stay on my topic; thus I am not the best candidate to whom you addressed your question. That's just the way I roll.

Can you dig it?

.. Of course . .

 

[Idolater]

Thanks.

Yes, I believe the promise of the Holy Spirit was given to the apostles. When we read what they wrote, we are therefore guided by the Holy Spirit. Now, I do also believe with the laying of the apostles hands some were given the Spirit of knowledge but it's my understanding that was for building up of the local congregation. It is my understanding that the gift of Holy Spirit guidance into all truth was not given to all Christians.

I agree that it's the correct understanding of those scriptures. They were written to us, but Christ there is not speaking to us; He's speaking to His future Apostles. The Spirit of truth rendered the Apostles infallible teachers of our faith. While they lived, they were the living standard of what was true. The Old Testament was available wherever there was a synagogue, but the Apostles' own interpretation of those scriptures supersedes anyone else's reading of the Law and Prophets. Paul didn't just recite Scripture to the Bereans, he preached the Word (Ac17:11KJV); the Gospel, which is a story---he told them a tale. They 'searched the scriptures,' to see, 'whether those things were so.' Confirming Paul's Apostolic teaching authority, when they found that the Scripture comported with the Gospel that Paul preached them. No Apostle would ever contradict the Scripture (the Old Testament/Septuagint in those days), so if anybody found contradiction with Scripture, they knew it was not the truth, and the Apostles never did that.

 

[turbosixx]

I'm missing something. Is someone itt arguing that baptism is required to be saved, and that this belongs in the OP statement of the 'Gospel Proper,' or is this a sidetrack? 'Nothing wrong with a good sidetrack, but I wish to clarify.

I said it belongs.

16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.