The Gospel Of Thomas

[Lon]

we are past that, thats how we got here... thanks for your input..

love ya

now back to our studies

I should add most probably a closed canon as well. These other books are extra reading material with errors and should be read differently than scriptures. Good reading? Yes, I agree. My message is one of caution and one of spending more time in Scripture verses other materials. My friend PJ said this to you at 11 PM even before I had responded to him:

Yesterday 11:01 PM
From freelight
To JosephR
Re: Me


Hi joe,...will try not to waste too much time with apologist Lon - its the same ole song,....bring your dancing shoes, flutes and lutes. The GOT issue can get complicated from a variety of angles, as there is some evidence as well for late dates, so opinions vary across the aboard. Besides correlations to the synoptics or other non-canonical sources for Jesus sayings,...all other sayings must be taken at their 'face' or 'esoteric' value. I left a link to the Gospel of the Nazirenes (a revision of the Gospel of the Holy 12 published years earlier) in one of my post summaries which is a most wonderful gospel, with very early sayings inflections. I've missed you on facebook or yahoo.

...because scripture isn't his primary or authoritative focus. Those of us following Christ as our Lord must 'waste' his time reminding him that the road is narrow that leads to life and that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to God. John 14:6 A mutt religion isn't God's. He draws clear lines anyone spending time in His Word would realize. He is trying to be 'comfortable' in his own made-up feel good religion rather than following Christ.

 

[freelight]

Consciousness ablaze........

Consciousness ablaze........

:nono: it is not else Christ is a liar. The man without the Spirit CANNOT know the things of God.
Joh 14:17 the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2Co 5:17 So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

We agree,....'God' is Light. God is Spirit. God is Love. God is Truth. God is One. My former statement stands,...that 'God' is the reality and original essence or 'light' that shines behind and prior to all existence and consciousness, so that nothing is known or perceived in any realm or dimension outside of 'consciousness' which includes all of creation and any information that can be known or related. There is also that which is prior to consciousness, that is unknowable...that in which consciousness and all its contents appear. Great Teachers such as Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj of the Advaita Vedanta (non-duality) tradition can further point to such.

Since God is Spirit, and nothing can live, be or exist apart from God,...that 'spirit' is omnipresent, so we could have no 'breath' or 'consciousness' apart from that Spirit. We can slice and dice our terms, qualifications, meanings, definitions, etc....but 'God' still remains as the one ever-availing, omnipresent reality, no matter what. Nothing can exist apart from Spirit.



pj

 

[freelight]

Canons ahoy.......

Canons ahoy.......

I should add most probably a closed canon as well. These other books are extra reading material with errors and should be read differently than scriptures. Good reading? Yes, I agree. My message is one of caution and one of spending more time in Scripture verses other materials. My friend PJ said this to you at 11 PM even before I had responded to him:

One cannot 'canonize' the INFINITE.

...because scripture isn't his primary or authoritative focus.

I'm a student of various religious traditions, schools and 'scriptures'.
Truth alone is the authority, not a particular collection of books or any one book necessarily...since all may contain truth or not to varying degrees and applications.

Those of us following Christ as our Lord must 'waste' his time reminding him that the road is narrow that leads to life and that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to God. John 14:6

Something well thought out, researched and studied, is a matter of continued consideration. A 'waste' of time might be a more interesting analogy than you realize (but on whose part is the question).

A mutt religion isn't God's.

Your mis-judgment call and 'opinion' is noted.

He draws clear lines anyone spending time in His Word would realize. He is trying to be 'comfortable' in his own made-up feel good religion rather than following Christ.

'God' knows the heart and soul of all his children, like no other...for he is their source and sustainer. A true disciple of Jesus would strive to know his true teachings, hence our effort here to explore such in the GOT. We had done this previously in our 'Gnostic Cosmology' thread, along with some other texts. This is a 'refresh'



pj

 

[unknown]

Vaya con Dios

Vaya con Dios

I very often write long messages that get deleted (by me) before they actually get posted. I do this for my own understanding.

This morning I did that again and it doesn't matter what the message was. The understanding I got from it is that I don't (never did) belong here on TOL.

Best of luck to all of you. This has been my longest running/most viewed thread ever but it can easily continue without me. Have fun.

 

[Levolor]

Such is not license for anyone to fake a book and call it scripture.

Fortunately, you are not able to control anyone but yourself.

Again, I have no problem with reading, I have a problem with 1) Lack of discernment and ...

Perfect discernment comes from God. "Programmed" discernment comes from man.

Again, this is something you are not able to control, unless you wish to indoctrinate with 'programming'.

...2) haughty independents/rebelliousness.

This is a phase, which God is quite capable of removing. Though it is a difficult phase for all because 'knowledge puffs up' (1 Corinthians 8:1-2) and pride is nearly impossible to see within one's self. This spiritual pride is insidious and ugly, but it too can be overcome with Christ's help. Christ, who I remind you, is the author and finisher of our faith. Do you not trust Him to guide these seekers along the path that Christ has ordained for them?

Otherwise I have no contention with reading Thomas' alleged book.

Thank you for your permission.

And discerning where it departs. Again, I'm not against reading it at all. I'm cautioning a few about canonical issues with it. :up:

Yes, I know. You have repeated yourself multiple times now.

At the same time, however, there are several layers of understanding to be had from the bible. Those who can only understand the simplest literal level cannot understand the highest secret mystical understandings... nor those who do.

I'm careful with such language because this is exactly how this GoT starts out.

Why are you careful with such truth? Not only does the GOT start with this, but the Jews, from who we have received our bible, teach on PRDS. The very thing, through carefulness, you are seemingly against anyone being aware of. It would be good if Christianity were to know about this, then we perhaps would not lose so many godly people to other traditions and/or to no tradition... and some to the insane asylum because there was no one who understood or even knew what the path could look like.

But no, instead, these people get condemned in so many different ways. Not only does Christianity and the majority of it's Christians run off these gentle souls, but it also creates atheists because it can not endorse anything but the literal meanings, and cannot give satisfactory answers for their questions nor answers for Christians who are questioning.

I left Christianity for a number of years for the above reasons and more, but the Lord asked me to return. It was one of the most difficult things I ever did... to again call myself a Christian, but that is what I am and have always been... even while self and other-ostracized.

Nevertheless, only those ready to grow will even be interested in these things. That should be a comfort to you?

I see the Bible as a practical book. Indeed only the man with the Spirit can discern the things of God and we also must study but such mystery is in the controlled and closed confines of a full revelation (canon) from God, accessible to the Body of Christ.

And those who have had the mysteries revealed to them by God are left out to dry. Tragedy of tragedies.

If you can't explain the mysteries with the bible, then don't condemn those who are trying to make sense of the bible by whatever means they find to be useful to them. Why try to push them further away with your non-approval?

If you are truly concerned, pray for the individuals as our good book instructs us to.

 

[intojoy]

GOT - bs

 

[Levolor]

I very often write long messages that get deleted (by me) before they actually get posted. I do this for my own understanding.

This morning I did that again and it doesn't matter what the message was. The understanding I got from it is that I don't (never did) belong here on TOL.

Best of luck to all of you. This has been my longest running/most viewed thread ever but it can easily continue without me. Have fun.

And looky here... someone has been pushed away. Way to go!

Unknown, I took a long sabbatical from here and returned due to God's urgings. May you be strengthened in the peace and love of God during your absence from here.

It is just not here that you don't belong... we are strangers in a strange land (Exodus 2:22).

It is hard to find a place where you can lay your head (get understanding), but fortunately we can find some... a precious few who unlike Christ had no one who understood Him and had no where to lay His head. (Matthew 8:20)

Being in the world and not of it (John 17:16) can be tough... thankfully crucifixion is no longer done by hanging a person on a tree.

May the peace that goes beyond understanding be with you.

 

[Levolor]

GOT - bs

You sure do got bs.

 

[intojoy]

You sure do got bs.

Don't we all?
Especially the GOT

 

[JosephR]

I very often write long messages that get deleted (by me) before they actually get posted. I do this for my own understanding.

This morning I did that again and it doesn't matter what the message was. The understanding I got from it is that I don't (never did) belong here on TOL.

Best of luck to all of you. This has been my longest running/most viewed thread ever but it can easily continue without me. Have fun.

I hope on some rainy afternoon,when no work can be done you will come back and share more with me,us.Refreshed.

I know this turned into a circus last night,and I am as much to blame as anyone.

Unknown made this thread for me,because I was curious ,so he decided to share His wisdom on how to decipher the Gnostic Text.

So I will continue the study,if not just for my own benefit but for the many who read also.

 

[JosephR]

This impresses upon us the importance of taking the 'opportunity' to receive truth while it is 'available',....so this brings in an interesting 'space' and 'time' element, especially if we have the 'opportunity' to hear such from a living incarnate master.

In fact in the Great Tradition of universal truth-revealers, it is always a living teacher or 'avatar' that transmits truth directly to disciples so that nothing can take the place of that 'actual transmission', hence the great blessing and benefit in being in the presence of a realized teacher (one who is one with God and can communicate that divine state {or 'gnosis'} to others).



pj

ty Pj

 

[JosephR]

(39) Jesus said: The Pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge (and) have hidden them. They did not go in, and those who wished to go in they did not allow. But you, be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.


See Matthew 10:16,Matthew 23:13

 

[Lon]

Fortunately, you are not able to control anyone but yourself.

Not true, however not my intention. It is only here as a warning to the discerning, not to those who are easily duped and swayed and desire to be so.

Perfect discernment comes from God. "Programmed" discernment comes from man.

Remember that as you give me your's. God calls shots, the sooner you fall in line the better.

Again, this is something you are not able to control, unless you wish to indoctrinate with 'programming'.

I'm interested in helping Christians walk the narrow road by requirement.

This is a phase, which God is quite capable of removing. Though it is a difficult phase for all because 'knowledge puffs up' (1 Corinthians 8:1-2) and pride is nearly impossible to see within one's self. This spiritual pride is insidious and ugly, but it too can be overcome with Christ's help. Christ, who I remind you, is the author and finisher of our faith. Do you not trust Him to guide these seekers along the path that Christ has ordained for them?

Trust God? Sure. Play my part? Yep.

Thank you for your permission.

You seem a bit more concerned with your self-will at the moment than I am with mine...

Yes, I know. You have repeated yourself multiple times now.

Great. Clarity is another reason for involvement in thread.

Why are you careful with such truth? Not only does the GOT start with this, but the Jews, from who we have received our bible, teach on PRDS. The very thing, through carefulness, you are seemingly against anyone being aware of. It would be good if Christianity were to know about this, then we perhaps would not lose so many godly people to other traditions and/or to no tradition... and some to the insane asylum because there was no one who understood or even knew what the path could look like.

Er, that's what I said. Does saying "It isn't scripture" strike such a painful nerve? I honestly don't think I have the problem here. The only ones I can imagine having such a knee jerk reaction are those who lack discernment or who disagree. Sure, I'll fight the second battle, the GoT is not canonical-able.

But no, instead, these people get condemned in so many different ways. Not only does Christianity and the majority of it's Christians run off these gentle souls, but it also creates atheists because it can not endorse anything but the literal meanings, and cannot give satisfactory answers for their questions nor answers for Christians who are questioning.

:chuckle: Sorry, I'm sure you are being sensitive and sincere here, but I honestly don't think I've run off a soul, let alone a gentle one here. Have I been terrible? :idunno: :nono:

I left Christianity for a number of years for the above reasons and more, but the Lord asked me to return. It was one of the most difficult things I ever did... to again call myself a Christian, but that is what I am and have always been... even while self and other-ostracized.

Sounds like a personal struggle and orthodoxy issues, at a glance. We are called not just to Christ, but His Body as well and so there is a belonging and 'right' to one another's life. If that rubbed or rubs you the wrong way, I don't believe it can be avoided. "We [who are in Christ] being many, form one body."

Nevertheless, only those ready to grow will even be interested in these things. That should be a comfort to you?

My point of entering the thread was to simply say this is not a canonical book. Some of the fringe wanna-be-teachers come to these and try to teach so there is reason to post a cautionary post in them, I believe.
Just a voice crying in the wilderness: "Make straight the pathway of/to the Lord."

And those who have had the mysteries revealed to them by God are left out to dry. Tragedy of tragedies.

One man's mystery is thier and another man's and God's heresy.
Christianity is God reaching to man, not man reaching to God. We don't find our way gropping in darkness. He finds us. However, some are teachers and I do believe it is how I fit in the Body. God is Sovereign but He will use us as we avail ourselves to Him. I thought I'd avail myself in thread to point in Godly directions.

If you can't explain the mysteries with the bible, then don't condemn those who are trying to make sense of the bible by whatever means they find to be useful to them. Why try to push them further away with your non-approval?

Not every path leads to God but many are rather a distraction and misdirection.

If you are truly concerned, pray for the individuals as our good book instructs us to.

I do. It does not preclude or presuppose other appropriate actions.

 

[Lon]

And looky here... someone has been pushed away. Way to go!

:nono: For saying the GoT isn't canonical and to take it with a grain of salt? I don't think so. If this user left, it was not because of me. :nono:

(maybe for being mean to PJ if it was his/her best friend or something - but I'd have to say 'very thin skinned and shouldn't be on TOL' at that point)

 

[Lon]

Hi Lon,

Its been awhile

The above claim may not be that accurate since other religious traditions have their holy books coming from divine inspiration (From God/Gods, angels, avatars, prophets, etc.), so I think singling out 'Judaism' and 'Christianity' as 'unique' in that respect is a bit of a 'stretch', if not a biased indulgence.

I know you do. You understand very little of Christianity, Christ, and the Apostles. You aren't trying to be a Christian but a person that picks and chooses what pleases him. You have a god all your own making that you wrongly concieve includes Christ. Your religion despises and dethrones the uncomparable Christ Colossians 1:14-19, John 14:6, Philippians 2:9-11

Adding from above,...we're swinging back to a prefigured/pre-concluded belief that a given set of 'scripture' is the perfect and replete record of 'God', which is debatable.

:nono: Not among Christians. The man without the Spirit cannot comprehend, so there you are 1 Corinthians 2:14-15

Oh goodness,....this is the tune and whistle of the heresiologists and apologists down thru the ages, who have combated Gnosticism in all its forms, or all other 'heresies' in the name of 'orthodoxy'. Same ole song.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.

I cannot and would not change scripture without apology. You either have Christ as your firm foundation such as I or you stumble over Him, such as you. 1 Peter 2:8
1Pe 2:3 For if truly you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
1Pe 2:4 For having been drawn to Him, a living Stone, indeed rejected by men, but elect, precious with God;
1Pe 2:5 Then you also as living stones are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Therefore also it is contained in the Scripture: "Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner Stone, elect, precious, and he who believes on Him shall never be ashamed."
1Pe 2:7 Therefore to you who believe is the honor. But to those who are disobedient, He is the Stone which the builders rejected; this One came to be the Head of the corner,

1Pe 2:8 and a Stone-of-stumbling and a Rock-of-offense to those disobeying, who stumble at the Word, to which they also were appointed.

Intellectual and spiritual insights can work in sync within a given belief-system, school of thought, science or tradition...since the 'God' who is Spirit is the essence and source of life itself. This same Deity is LIGHT....the origin of all knowledge/revelation/truth. - details within the cultural-context and traditional over-lay of the system vary, of course,...but 'God' is the Sun, the various religious traditions being its 'rays'.

Compare with the above scriptures. I don't really care what some weird guy without God said, nor that you bunch anyone together from any religion that says something similar. Christ came to cause exactly this kind of strife between us. You cannot have your cake and eat it to where Christianity is concerned. You are either building on Christ or stumbling and no inbetween. He is not just another guru. He supplants them all.

More tunes and whistles Lon. Its the usual 'sanctioned company' defendinig the 'canon' and 'creed'.

Yes, read the scripture above. I have no choice but to build or stumble. You have no choice but to build or stumble. There is no in-between. Faith in Christ is exclusive, by necessity.

At best, from my POV,...this is free exploration and consideration of a collection of sayings attributed to Jesus,.....which we are cross-correlating with other passages, both 'canonical' and 'non-canonical'. Whatever truths, insights, values, meanings, allegories, metaphors or analogies can be drawn therefrom, are for readers to judge for themselves by all the powers of discernment available. - that's what honest research is all about, and having a mind open to keep asking, seeking and knocking....which Jesus certainly encourages.



pj

1Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[meshak]

Lon,

You have been dismissing Jesus word of "you know them by their fruit".

Mainstreamers who claim to be true and saved people are not showing godly fruit to the world.

You need reality check, brother.

 

[Lon]

Lon,

You have been dismissing Jesus word of "you know them by their fruit".

Mainstreamers who claim to be true and saved people are not showing godly fruit to the world.

You need reality check, brother.

:doh: You ONLY know me by my words on TOL. Have I said anything unChrist-like to you?

 

[This Charming Manc]

are still waisting time on this piece or garbage (the false gospel of thomas)?

 

[JosephR]

I am going to start reporting ppl that have nothing to say about the subject at hand..I cant believe you guys are this disrespectful...

I dont care if you think its BS as inotjoy says numerous times.or garbage as manc has said many times..

And I dont care about the canon, we have been over that subject... I have only reported ONE post since I been here and I try hard to get along with most,, please have some respect.

 

[JosephR]

(39) Jesus said: The Pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge (and) have hidden them. They did not go in, and those who wished to go in they did not allow. But you, be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.


See Matthew 10:16,Matthew 23:13