The Gospel Of Thomas

[meshak]

Please forgive me for going backward, I just started read GOT and this is very interesting:



Jesus did not say go to Paul. James preaches plainly to do good works. He says faith without deeds is dead.

thank you.

GOT is dismissed because of this? It is possible.

 

[JosephR]

GOT is dismissed because of this? It is possible.

It is clearly not dismissed,as we are discussing it..

this is not about Paul,or Thomas even, its about the sayings and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.

my personal look at early Christianity and from what we have today are two different things entirely , I dont know the answers,thats why I study and look things up and discuss them here with more wise then myself..

but please dont make this out to be about or against Paul or The Church or Christianity,because that is what will happen.If you claim to follow Jesus only and reject Paul then it seems logical to convert to Messianic Judaism. And I have/do consider that myself.

It's not accepted by most because of the canon of coarse and thats a whole other topic that we have moved past to get to here.

 

[unknown]

Please forgive me for going backward, I just started read GOT and this is very interesting:



Jesus did not say go to Paul. James preaches plainly to do good works. He says faith without deeds is dead.

thank you.

What Jesus "said" will depend on the author of the text. In order to know exactly what Jesus said we would have had to have been there with him, otherwise it is all hearsay.

In the case of The Gospel of Thomas here, we are dealing with an Egyptian Gnostic text. There were around a hundred or so texts in the early days of "Christianity" (The Way). Only those texts that suited the beliefs of the church in Rome were allowed to remain after Rome declared Christianity the state religion and the canon was formed. Everything else was declared heretical and that is why the 52 texts found in Egypt were hidden in the first place.

This thread is here to examine GOT and see what wisdom might be there. Many of the sayings are also found in the NT. One's understanding of these things will depend, at first, on what ideas one already has about the matter.

 

[meshak]

but please dont make this out to be about or against Paul or The Church or Christianity,

Sorry, that's my impression. I am sure I am entitled to my opinion.

It is collection of Jesus' word.

It should have been canonized. Paul is not Lord, Jesus is. Paul's teachings makes up the NT mostly.

It is absurd.

 

[JosephR]

(33) Jesus said: What you hear with your ear (and) with the other ear, proclaim it on your roof-tops. For no one lights a lamp to set it under a bushel, or to put it in a hidden place; but he sets it on the lamp-stand, that all who go in and come out may see its light.

This to me says to share your gifts,wisdom and fruits you receive from God. Jesus said to give freely as He gave to them.. also in the parable of the 3 men and one buried His money in the ground instead of going and multiplying it..

Thats my first impressions here.

 

[freelight]

Sabbath principle maintained......

Sabbath principle maintained......

~*~*~

I just wanted to share for some more confirmation on GOT saying 27 ( commented on earlier on page 27) -

27. Yeshua says: Unless you fast from the world, you shall not find the Sovereignty {of God}; unless you keep the (entire) week¹ as Sabbath°,² you shall not behold the Father.

This is from the Gospel of the Nazirenes 26:9 -

"And I say to you, "Except you fast from the world and its evil ways, you will in no wise find the kingdom; and except you keep the Sabbath and cease your haste to gather riches, you will not see the Father-Mother in heaven.

The Gospel of the Nazirenes holds the concept of 'God' as our 'Father-Mother', very much in step with my own sentiments on the masculine/feminine aspects of Deity, reflected in man,...a 'bi-unity', 'two in one'; 'one in two'.

My commentaries on 'Father-Mother-God' are many, see here...plus a recent showdown on religious sexism on the 'Women Preachers?' thread, starting on this page here

Re-cap: becoming a 'renunciate' is essential for one to devote himself to Spirit, while observing Sabbath naturally includes minding the things of the Spirit.


pj

 

[meshak]

~*~*~

I just wanted to share for some more confirmation on GOT saying 27 ( commented on earlier on page 27) -




This is from the Gospel of the Nazirenes 26:9 -



The Gospel of the Nazirenes holds the concept of 'God' as our 'Father-Mother', very much in step with my own sentiments on the masculine/feminine aspects of Deity, reflected in man,...a 'bi-unity', 'two in one'; 'one in two'.

My commentaries on 'Father-Mother-God' are many, see here...plus a recent showdown on religious sexism on the 'Women Preachers?' thread, starting on this page here


pj

It is clear to me that Jesus is saying we need to get rid of our ways to Jesus' ways for God's kingdom. This is the whole theme of Jesus' teachings.

So mainstream churches' "your works will not get you to heaven" is sham. That's what I read from the four gospels too.

 

[unknown]

(33) Jesus said, "Preach from your housetops that which you will hear in your ear. For no one lights a lamp and puts it under a bushel, nor does he put it in a hidden place, but rather he sets it on a lampstand so that everyone who enters and leaves will see its light."

Here we have two sayings from the NT. The first part is found in Matthew 10:27 and Luke 12:3. If we go back to the beginning of Matt 10 we see the context in which He said this. This saying is not just about anything we hear, IOW, it is not an excuse for Christians to gossip.


The teachings of Jesus is the light we should not hide and therefore the second part is appropriate being combined with the first. Who would light a lamp (turn on a light) if they wanted to be in darkness?

Matthew 10:27

27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs.

Matthew 10:1-5

1 Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

Luke 12:3

3 What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.

Matthew 5:15

15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.


Luke 11:33

33 “No one lights a lamp and puts it in a place where it will be hidden, or under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, so that those who come in may see the light.


Luke 8:16

16 “No one lights a lamp and hides it in a clay jar or puts it under a bed. Instead, they put it on a stand, so that those who come in can see the light.

 

[lifeisgood]

It is clear to me that Jesus is saying we need to get rid of our ways to Jesus' ways for God's kingdom. This is the whole theme of Jesus' teachings.

So mainstream churches' "your works will not get you to heaven" is sham. That's what I read from the four gospels too.

You have no idea of what you are talking about, meshak. “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.” (Rom. 4:5)

Yes, I understand that YOU think that YOU are doing something for God, but these are YOUR works and not the works prepared by Him for HIS children.

God's children do not do works that will get them to heaven. They do good works because they already have assurance of heaven as the Father has drawn them to Him and has made them His and then has shown them what good works He has prepared for them to do (Ephesians 2:10).

I know I am in your ignore list, but if we were conversing, this is what I would have told you.

May the Father draw you to Him so that you can do His good works.

 

[unknown]

You have no idea of what you are talking about, meshak. “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.” (Rom. 4:5)

Yes, I understand that YOU think that YOU are doing something for God, but these are YOUR works and not the works prepared by Him for HIS children.

God's children do not do works that will get them to heaven. They do good works because they already have assurance of heaven as the Father has drawn them to Him and has made them His and then has shown them what good works He has prepared for them to do (Ephesians 2:10).

I know I am in your ignore list, but if we were conversing, this is what I would have told you.

May the Father draw you to Him so that you can do His good works.

I realize that as a Christian you have absolutely no respect for either me or my thread and there is not much I can do about it. Did you notice it is only Christians in this thread that have nothing intelligent to say about The Gospel of Thomas.

Your post to meshak, even though you are on her ingnore list is off topic. But since you have gone there already, I will say this; Saved or not, you have works. Everything you "do" is a work. Your works will be either righteous or not. Why complain about others doing "works"? I know you think no work counts until one is saved but I think you just use that as an excuse for doing nothing (I could be wrong). Why does it bother you (and many like you) if other people want to do good works? Like I said already, saved or not you have your works, why not let them be good works, Christian?

Did you not notice that meshak addressed her remarks to what she calls mainstream churches? These are the people who claimed to be saved, these are the people who above all other people should be doing good works. She did not say that works are what saves a person, but you (just like so many others) are quick (a little too quick imo) to point out that works do not save anyone. It is that alone that makes me think you may have a guilty consciousness because of your inability to do good works. Have you even tried it? If not you may want to reconsider your own salvation.

 

[unknown]

Saying 34

Saying 34

(34) Jesus said, "If a blind man leads a blind man, they will both fall into a pit."

This saying is found in Matthew 15, the meaning should be obvious to anyone.


Matthew 15

10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”

12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”

13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides.[d] If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

 

[Levolor]

I realize that as a Christian you have absolutely no respect for either me or my thread and there is not much I can do about it. Did you notice it is only Christians in this thread that have nothing intelligent to say about The Gospel of Thomas.

Ummm... you might want to check my side bar.

 

[JosephR]

(35) Jesus said: It is not possible for anyone to go into the strong man's house (and) take it by force, unless he binds his hands; then will he plunder his house.

 

[unknown]

Ummm... you might want to check my side bar.

I said it was only Christians that had nothing intelligent to say. I did not say all Christians have nothing intelligent to say. I did think about you specifically when I wrote that but it doesn't include you. As far as the respect part, I would not say that you disrespect me, quite the contrary, you have always been polite to me. But in general Christians do not respect any belief but their own, just like the Muslims and the Jews and so on and on.

I have no doctrines, I am making all this up as I go along. If a new truth is found today, my beliefs will change accordingly. What is truth? If we knew that, TOL wouldn't have any traffic at all (my estimation).

My apologies to you, you are in fact (I think) the only Christian who hasn't been disrespectful in this thread. Don't worry about it if you do become disrespectful. I can deal with that too (though I'd rather not). We don't always get what we want...........but if we try sometime....... we just might find...........we get what we need.

The way I look at it , it's all good. I did get to rebuke one of the people who are always whining about salvation is not by works when there was no need to go there, That's good enough for me, I'm not really expecting any kind of apology or anything, more than likely ( based on my own TOL experience) I'll just get more of the same. Who knows?

 

[lifeisgood]

I realize that as a Christian you have absolutely no respect for either me or my thread and there is not much I can do about it. Did you notice it is only Christians in this thread that have nothing intelligent to say about The Gospel of Thomas.

Your post to meshak, even though you are on her ingnore list is off topic. But since you have gone there already, I will say this; Saved or not, you have works. Everything you "do" is a work. Your works will be either righteous or not. Why complain about others doing "works"? I know you think no work counts until one is saved but I think you just use that as an excuse for doing nothing (I could be wrong). Why does it bother you (and many like you) if other people want to do good works? Like I said already, saved or not you have your works, why not let them be good works, Christian?

Did you not notice that meshak addressed her remarks to what she calls mainstream churches? These are the people who claimed to be saved, these are the people who above all other people should be doing good works. She did not say that works are what saves a person, but you (just like so many others) are quick (a little too quick imo) to point out that works do not save anyone. It is that alone that makes me think you may have a guilty consciousness because of your inability to do good works. Have you even tried it? If not you may want to reconsider your own salvation.

Yes, I did notice, I am one of those she calls mainstream churches and that is why she put me on her ignore list.

Works do not save anyone. The only work that saves is Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary. It is all about Him and nothing about us.

Now, after, He has accepted us into His family, then we will do works, however, the works is the result of and not the cause of.

Again, I apologize for opining in your thread.

 

[unknown]

(35) Jesus said: It is not possible for anyone to go into the strong man's house (and) take it by force, unless he binds his hands; then will he plunder his house.

Hmmm.....first, I think, is who is the strong man and second how do we bind him?

The word satan, contrary to what some believe is not a being, it is a quality within man himself (so is Eve btw). This quality in Kabbalah is called "the will to receive for the self alone". It is the reason for all our egoistic acts (works). This quality is nullified when we attain (reveal/recognize) the quality of The Creator, which is called "The will to bestow". It is impossible to receive for our self alone and bestow (to God, by bestowing to creation) at the same time. We can not attain this quality, it is the gift The Creator gives (bestows) to those prepared to receive it.

This quality is already in man, it is called צֶלֶם אֱלֹהִים; tzelem elohim or the "image of God".

Again I am reminded of those who do not yet understand the importance of their own works/deeds/actions. These types will always have trouble binding the strongman.

 

[JosephR]

Hmmm.....first, I think, is who is the strong man and second how do we bind him?

The word satan, contrary to what some believe is not a being, it is a quality within man himself (so is Eve btw). This quality in Kabbalah is called "the will receive for the self alone". It is the reason for all our egoistic acts (works). This quality is nullified when we attain (reveal/recognize) the quality of The Creator, which is called "The will to bestow". It is impossible to receive for our self alone and bestow (to God, by bestowing to creation) at the same time. We can not attain this quality, it is the gift The Creator gives (bestows) to those prepared to receive it.

This quality is already in man, it is called צֶלֶם אֱלֹהִים; tzelem elohim or thehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literal_translation "image of God".

Again I am reminded of those who do not yet understand the importance of their own works/deeds/actions. These types will always have trouble binding the strongman.

Then I would attack the strong man,as the serpent did, in putting doubt in His mind.

Your deeds are not needed,hath God said, you are saved already, ect ect...also alot of SunTzu comes to mind,there are many ways to defeat a strong man without the use of physical strength. Separate the strong man from the creator and you can defeat Him,,divide and conquer..

 

[unknown]

Yes, I did notice, I am one of those she calls mainstream churches and that is why she put me on her ignore list.

Works do not save anyone. The only work that saves is Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary. It is all about Him and nothing about us.

Now, after, He has accepted us into His family, then we will do works, however, the works is the result of and not the cause of.

Again, I apologize for opining in your thread.

There is not a thing in the world wrong with doing good at any time!

Nobody can do an altruistic act . Only God is good, but what is the harm in trying? again, I mean anytime.

 

[Levolor]

I said it was only Christians that had nothing intelligent to say. I did not say all Christians have nothing intelligent to say.

Ah, right you are! My apologies for the interpretive error.

I did think about you specifically when I wrote that but it doesn't include you. As far as the respect part, I would not say that you disrespect me, quite the contrary, you have always been polite to me. But in general Christians do not respect any belief but their own, just like the Muslims and the Jews and so on and on.

I believe that there is a tremendous amount of fear in a lot of Christians that prevent them from investigating.

I have no doctrines, I am making all this up as I go along. If a new truth is found today, my beliefs will change accordingly. What is truth? If we knew that, TOL wouldn't have any traffic at all (my estimation).

It is good to conform one's self to truth. God does not change. It is we who must change and conform ourselves to that constant.

My apologies to you, you are in fact (I think) the only Christian who hasn't been disrespectful in this thread. Don't worry about it if you do become disrespectful. I can deal with that too (though I'd rather not).

No problem/worries. It was I who misunderstood you. I do not wish to ever be disrespectful. If I ever appear that way no doubt it would be due to my not making myself clear enough.

We don't always get what we want...........but if we try sometime....... we just might find...........we get what we need.

True.

The way I look at it , it's all good. I did get to rebuke one of the people who are always whining about salvation is not by works when there was no need to go there, That's good enough for me, I'm not really expecting any kind of apology or anything, more than likely ( based on my own TOL experience) I'll just get more of the same. Who knows?

Hope springs eternal. And then, there's always that innocent due to ignorance thing too. ....Children... they walk on toes when young and then walk on hearts when older.

Thank you for taking the time to clear this up for me.

Namaste

 

[Levolor]

on to 11 then

Jesus said, “This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will not die. In the days when you consumed what is dead, you made it what is alive. When you come to dwell in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?"

I almost didn't want to make comment on this one because it is so involved. Nevertheless,...

Jesus said, “This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away.

I believe that the 'this heaven' Jesus was referring to was the heaven of water, which concerns the emotions. The heaven that is above the heaven of water is the heaven of air, which concerns matters of the mind. These two heavens are right now undisciplined by the vast majority of humanity and runs riot causing all sorts of suffering. (Ephesians 6:12)

The third heaven is above both the water and air heavens and it is the heaven of fire. Nothing impure enters this heaven.

Not only are these heavens states of being, but are also planes of existence.

The dead are not alive, and the living will not die.

This sentence reminds me of two scriptures. The first is where Jesus is saying let the dead bury the dead (Matthew 8:22), and the second is of Jesus saying that there are some standing here who will not taste death (Matthew 16:28).

Paul, I know several do not appreciate him, however, he said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:8) So, he who leaves his body at death remains alive if he does not believe he must first sleep (1 Corinthians 15:51). Those who have already left the body in life, prior to death, are alive and shall not experience any change in consciousness at physical death. Speaking of OBE here.

In the days when you consumed what is dead, you made it what is alive.

This could have several meanings, no doubt true of all the sayings, but what it makes me think of is those who are motivated by the carnal desires, living them and thereby consuming what is dead and making it, those desires, alive. We see this alive 'death' pervasive throughout society. This too is related to the verse wherein Jesus said to let the dead bury the dead.

When you come to dwell in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?"

So many thoughts come to mind on these. They are related yet distinct too...

When you come to dwell in the light, what will you do?

Earlier in this Gospel of Thomas it was written (paraphrased) that when we come to the truth we will be amazed and yet also troubled.

What will we do? How will we react? Each person is different in their response. Do some despair? Do some get excited? Do some get angry? All the responses possible are no doubt experienced by all those who come to be one with God. (Crucified into Christ)

Will we praise God? Or will we say it was our own efforts to arrive there?

On the day when you were one you became two.

It is not possible, nor advisable, for us humans to remain there in the state of non-duality forever. So, we come back to ourselves, but changed... the one who sees God dies and God has been seen. So, we come back to ourselves forever different than who we had been. Who we had been, that person, has died.

If we were to remain in non-duality, we would not be useful. We can, through different types of prayer, such as contemplative prayer, meditation, etc, go there again and again. But, to remain? This is not God's will for us.

But when you become two, what will you do?"

So, after becoming one with God, what will you do? Serve God by serving our neighbors, or self?