The Flood is proof of the Creation

[Right Divider]

idk but this might be a rare picture of a rare rock formation, in a mountain. Maybe 'as a mountain'. Maybe the whole mountain is the whole, possibly rare rock formation itself, I don't know I figure I'm between 0.1-0.25 level geology. But it made me think about the "rug" or carpet that gets 'scrunched' up, as a model for how the granitic crust generated mountains and mountain ranges.

Is that what I'm looking at in this image?

https://www.reddit.com/r/geology/comments/uo22lv

Canada

 

[Gary K]

Canada

Ah, come on. All strata of stone line neatly up in distinctly obvious layers just like in the Grand Canyon.

 

[blueboy]

IF----and it's a BIG IF----the global Flood really happened, and IF----and it's an even BIGGER IF----the " fountains of the great deep" (Genesis 7:11) referred to a hollow sphere of water surrounding the earth's mantle, a layer submerged beneath the earth's rocky crust, then this would be absolute physical proof of the Creation.

Because why, through natural causes, would the earth develop a layer of water underneath the crust, all around the globe, a layer of water that was directly atop the earth's mantle (made of liquid rock, magma, when it erupts from volcanoes it's called lava)?

The Flood wasn't a miracle. Creation was a miracle. The only reason there would be a layer of water surrounding the mantle would be because God put it there, when He made the earth. iow the earth was 'set up' for the possibility of the Flood, when it was made. It could happen just once, if or whenever the crust that sealed in this supercritical water (we're guessing around half the earth's 1.4 billion cubic kms of water was down there, about a km deep layer if it were liquid, between the liquid magma below and the solid rock crust above) was 'punctured' by something, or somehow.

Once that began, however it began, then the process would not stop until basically all of the water contained in "the fountains of the great deep" was now upon the surface of the planet, and it would take not very long, and it would be absolutely devastating to the crust. Let alone to any life, that was not already in a boat.

If this is what occurred, then our thinking here is that the continents were formed in this way. Before the Flood, the crust was some sort of a mixture of different density rock, some rock being slightly more dense, and some being slightly less dense. All of this rock is still here, but before the Flood the surface of the crust was flatter, and instead of vast oceans there were instead fresh water lakes and ponds and rivers everywhere, but the earth's surface was mostly level land and very green, with fresh water everywhere, but no sea.

And then, as the Flood was happening, once the crust was punctured somehow, perhaps a meteor struck the earth's surface somewhere, all of the less dense rock during this tumultuous process (which is an understatement!) gathered together into continents (and continental shelves), and all the other denser crust gathered into the seabed.

And that's pretty much where things now sit. If this theory is right, then the Flood really does explain why the earth is how it is today, geologically, and all the residue left in the wake of the Flood is still right here, right now, clear to see, only aged about 6000 years by our count. Our inquiry in these threads has been exactly how to conceive of the Flood, that explains both the biblical record and the physical evidence.

All I'm saying in this thread is that, IF we succeed, then we will have proven not only the Flood, but Creation, because how through natural causes would there ever be a 1km thick layer of water between the earth's liquid magma mantle, and the solid rock crust, unless it was put there by God?

We will have proven God.

So let's keep going.

Just an idea. Clearly no global flood occurred as written in Genesis. Neither the planet, nor its lifeforms could rebuild eco-systems even remotely similar to how they once were after such a catastrophe. Humans can't diversify into Pygmies, Aboriginals, Vikings, Zulu, Native Americans and all the other variations of human culture in a relative blink of an eye, 3,500 years. All evidence suggests that life flourished through the supposed period of the Flood. And as we know the Bible is more concerned about the human spirit than delivering a history lesson about the destruction of a planet full of humans and all other living creatures.

Noah was a Prophet, a religious Teacher like Christ. 40 days of rain was 40 years of Revelation that poured down from God and was received by Noah. 1 day for humans is a year to God in some cases in the Bible. Those who harkened to the word of Noah entered a Covenant with God and this Covenant was like a great Ark, a place of safety against the deluge and flood of self and passion, just as a large boat would be a place of safety in a great flood.

The story was of course embellished and took on some of the characteristics of the many flood myths that existed in the various cultures of that age.

It's a story of 40 years of Revelation received by Noah and how accepting the Word of God offered protection from a deluge and flood of materialism, self and passion. Thos who did not turn to Noah and thus God lost their spiritual life in a flood of sin and materialism.

 

[Skeeter]

Those who harkened to the word of Noah entered a Covenant with God and this Covenant was like a great Ark, a place of safety against the deluge and flood of self and passion, just as a large boat would be a place of safety in a great flood.

An allegorical understanding of the Bible rehabilitates the Bible. Concrete and binary thinkers corrupt the Bible and steal much of its rationality.

 

[7djengo7]

An allegorical understanding of the Bible rehabilitates the Bible.

Saying the Bible is not true "rehabilitates the Bible" how?

Concrete and binary thinkers corrupt the Bible and steal much of its rationality.

Logic is binary. You despise binary thinking because you despise logic.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Just an idea. Clearly no global flood occurred as written in Genesis.

Clearly, you're wrong.

Neither the planet, nor its lifeforms could rebuild eco-systems even remotely similar to how they once were after such a catastrophe.

Because you say so?

Humans can't diversify into Pygmies, Aboriginals, Vikings, Zulu, Native Americans and all the other variations of human culture in a relative blink of an eye, 3,500 years.

Modern humans cannot. Humans of 5200 years ago, however, would have been MUCH more genetically diverse than modern humans, and DID diversify into what we have today.

All evidence suggests that life flourished through the supposed period of the Flood.

That period being... when?

5200 years ago?

And as we know the Bible is more concerned about the human spirit than delivering a history lesson about the destruction of a planet full of humans and all other living creatures.

The lesson comes THROUGH the historical record of the flood.

Analogizing it renders it meaningless.

Noah was a Prophet,

Nope. He was just a righteous man.

a religious Teacher like Christ.

No, he wasn't.

40 days of rain was 40 years of Revelation that poured down from God and was received by Noah.

No, it wasn't. It actually rained for 40 days and nights, and then the waters did in fact continue to rise, and remained on the earth for 150 days.

1 day for humans is a year to God in some cases in the Bible.

Nope. That is a constantly misquoted verse. You should read it more carefully.

Those who harkened to the word of Noah entered a Covenant with God and this Covenant was like a great Ark, a place of safety against the deluge and flood of self and passion, just as a large boat would be a place of safety in a great flood.

New-age nonsense.

The story was of course embellished and took on some of the characteristics of the many flood myths that existed in the various cultures of that age.

You have it backwards.

The Flood record of the Bible was embellished and misremembered by the people who spread around the world the decades following the Flood. Nearly every culture in the world has some sort of catastrophic story involving a flood of some kind.

It's a story of 40 years of Revelation received by Noah and how accepting the Word of God offered protection from a deluge and flood of materialism, self and passion.

No, it's not.

Those who did not turn to Noah and thus God lost their spiritual life in a flood of sin and materialism.

More new-age nonsense.

 

[JudgeRightly]

An allegorical understanding of the Bible rehabilitates the Bible.

Rather, it turns the Bible into meaningless mush. But I guess for someone who rejects God anyways, that's in your favor.

Concrete and binary thinkers corrupt the Bible and steal much of its rationality.

Says the one who thinks the Bible should be irrational...

 

[Derf]

Just an idea. Clearly no global flood occurred as written in Genesis.

Clearly must mean something different for you than for most. Maybe "clearly" is an allegory for "I've closed my eyes to the evidence and I just follow what the high priests of science are saying at the moment."

 

[Skeeter]

Rather, it turns the Bible into meaningless mush.

A literal understanding of the Bible strains credulity. Contradictions abound. Order of creation is contradicted. Matthew's account of the resurrection of Jesus includes resurrection of several others who walk from their graves to the city. No one else makes mention of it. How did they miss it?

Lack of sophisticated understanding of the world is evident. World is flat and center of the universe. Washing hands before meals is unnecessary (ie no understanding of germs).

Says the one who thinks the Bible should be irrational...

The Bible can be seen to hold great wisdom comparable to the works of Shakespeare. A literal interpretation makes it no more valuable than Dick and Jane. See Dick run. Yes - allegory is imprecise, but it elevates the discussion out of grade school.

 

[JudgeRightly]

A literal understanding of the Bible strains credulity.

No, it doesn't.

Contradictions abound.

Such as?

Order of creation is contradicted.

False.

Matthew's account of the resurrection of Jesus includes resurrection of several others who walk from their graves to the city.

Yup. And?

No one else makes mention of it.

So? The four Gospels were written by four different people. It's only natural that they give their different perspectives, and give their recollection of events in different ways and to differing degrees.

How did they miss it?

Why do you assume they missed it?

Lack of sophisticated understanding of the world is evident.

False.

World is flat

The Bible does not teach that the world is flat. That's a myth that has been thoroughly debunked on this site and others.

and center of the universe.

Ever heard of the "Axis of Evil"?

By the way, it's a philosophical claim that the earth cannot be the center of the universe, not a scientific one.

Washing hands before meals is unnecessary (ie no understanding of germs).

I'm not sure what your accusation is here. Are you saying that the Bible does or does not say that one should practice good hygiene?

The Bible can be seen to hold great wisdom comparable to the works of Shakespeare.

Shakespeare was a fiction playwright. The Bible is a record of history written as a book of law.

A literal interpretation makes it no more valuable than Dick and Jane. See Dick run.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Yes - allegory is imprecise,

The Bible, in addition to being a history book.

but it elevates the discussion out of grade school.

The prophet Ezekiel wrote the following:

Spoiler

Now it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the third month, on the first day of the month, that the word of the Lord came to me, saying,“Son of man, say to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his multitude: ‘Whom are you like in your greatness?Indeed Assyria was a cedar in Lebanon, With fine branches that shaded the forest, And of high stature; And its top was among the thick boughs.The waters made it grow; Underground waters gave it height, With their rivers running around the place where it was planted, And sent out rivulets to all the trees of the field.‘Therefore its height was exalted above all the trees of the field; Its boughs were multiplied, And its branches became long because of the abundance of water, As it sent them out.All the birds of the heavens made their nests in its boughs; Under its branches all the beasts of the field brought forth their young; And in its shadow all great nations made their home.‘Thus it was beautiful in greatness and in the length of its branches, Because its roots reached to abundant waters.The cedars in the garden of God could not hide it; The fir trees were not like its boughs, And the chestnut trees were not like its branches; No tree in the garden of God was like it in beauty.I made it beautiful with a multitude of branches, So that all the trees of Eden envied it, That were in the garden of God.’“Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Because you have increased in height, and it set its top among the thick boughs, and its heart was lifted up in its height,therefore I will deliver it into the hand of the mighty one of the nations, and he shall surely deal with it; I have driven it out for its wickedness.And aliens, the most terrible of the nations, have cut it down and left it; its branches have fallen on the mountains and in all the valleys; its boughs lie broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the peoples of the earth have gone from under its shadow and left it.‘On its ruin will remain all the birds of the heavens, And all the beasts of the field will come to its branches—So that no trees by the waters may ever again exalt themselves for their height, nor set their tops among the thick boughs, that no tree which drinks water may ever be high enough to reach up to them. ‘For they have all been delivered to death, To the depths of the earth, Among the children of men who go down to the Pit.’“Thus says the Lord God: ‘In the day when it went down to hell, I caused mourning. I covered the deep because of it. I restrained its rivers, and the great waters were held back. I caused Lebanon to mourn for it, and all the trees of the field wilted because of it.I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to hell together with those who descend into the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the depths of the earth.They also went down to hell with it, with those slain by the sword; and those who were its strong arm dwelt in its shadows among the nations.‘To which of the trees in Eden will you then be likened in glory and greatness? Yet you shall be brought down with the trees of Eden to the depths of the earth; you shall lie in the midst of the uncircumcised, with those slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude,’ says the Lord God.” - Ezekiel 31:1-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel31:1-18&version=NKJV

Question: Is the above passage talking about the nation of Egypt, yes or no.

 

[7djengo7]

Contradictions abound.

Here, you are admitting that at least some of the propositions affirmed by the Bible are true. One of every two propositions that constitute a pair of contradictories is true, and the other is false.

IOW, you've just admitted to us the truth that not every proposition affirmed by the Bible is false. You, of course, don't agree with us that every proposition affirmed by the Bible is true, but you've just admitted that at least some of them are true.

 

[Right Divider]

Just an idea. Clearly no global flood occurred as written in Genesis.

False.

Neither the planet, nor its lifeforms could rebuild eco-systems even remotely similar to how they once were after such a catastrophe.

How do you know this?

Humans can't diversify into Pygmies, Aboriginals, Vikings, Zulu, Native Americans and all the other variations of human culture in a relative blink of an eye, 3,500 years.

False.

All evidence suggests that life flourished through the supposed period of the Flood.

False.

And as we know the Bible is more concerned about the human spirit than delivering a history lesson about the destruction of a planet full of humans and all other living creatures.

The Bible is fully concerned with both.
The Flood account is the most detailed timeline in the Bible. That is a FACT.

Noah was a Prophet, a religious Teacher like Christ.

Only a little. Noah was not God in the flesh

40 days of rain was 40 years of Revelation that poured down from God and was received by Noah.

Baloney.

1 day for humans is a year to God in some cases in the Bible.

Baloney.

Those who harkened to the word of Noah entered a Covenant with God and this Covenant was like a great Ark, a place of safety against the deluge and flood of self and passion, just as a large boat would be a place of safety in a great flood.

Everyone except the 8 died in the flood.

The story was of course embellished and took on some of the characteristics of the many flood myths that existed in the various cultures of that age.

Nonsense.

It's a story of 40 years of Revelation received by Noah and how accepting the Word of God offered protection from a deluge and flood of materialism, self and passion. Thos who did not turn to Noah and thus God lost their spiritual life in a flood of sin and materialism.

Only Noah and his family survived.

 

[Stripe]

An allegorical understanding of the Bible rehabilitates the Bible. Concrete and binary thinkers corrupt the Bible and steal much of its rationality.

What you wrote is called a platitude. Next to useless in a sensible conversation.

 

[Skeeter]

What you wrote is called a platitude. Next to useless in a sensible conversation.

But a platitude becomes meaningless because of overuse. What I say is halfway original how ever useful you think it is.

 

[Skeeter]

Here, you are admitting that at least some of the propositions affirmed by the Bible are true. One of every two propositions that constitute a pair of contradictories is true, and the other is false.

IOW, you've just admitted to us the truth that not every proposition affirmed by the Bible is false. You, of course, don't agree with us that every proposition affirmed by the Bible is true, but you've just admitted that at least some of them are true.

You have real issues with semantics and logic. Two absolutely false things can contradict each other. Like two false alibis. Stripe can say you were with him playing basketball, while JR says you were with him reading the Bible, but you were really off on your own with your laptop murdering the English language.

 

[7djengo7]

Two absolutely false things can contradict each other.

That's false. No false proposition contradicts, or is contradictory to, any false proposition. Also, no true proposition contradicts, or is contradictory to, any true proposition.

1. Every thing that is false is a proposition. Every thing that is true is a proposition.
2. Propositions do not contradict propositions. Persons contradict propositions, and they do so by affirming propositions. To contradict the proposition, P, is to affirm the proposition that is its contradictory—viz., the proposition, ~P. Every instance of affirming a proposition is an instance of contradicting (negating, opposing, denying, etc.) a proposition.

Feel free to give us two propositions, each of which 1) you'd say is false, and each of which 2) you'd say is contradictory to the other.

Here is a pair of contradictories:

'New York is north of Florida' (true) vs 'New York is not north of Florida' (false).
​

Now, in a similar layout as I've just given, why don't you give us two propositions, each of which you'd say is false, and both of which, together, you'd say constitute a pair of mutually contradictory propositions? Fill in these blanks with two false propositions you want to tell us constitute a pair of contradictories:

'________________________________' (false) vs '________________________________' (false)​

Have fun with that.

You invite attention to your crassness and your ignorance of logic by claiming that two false propositions can be/are mutually contradictory.

 

[7djengo7]

Like two false alibis. Stripe can say you were with him playing basketball, while JR says you were with him reading the Bible, but you were really off on your own with your laptop murdering the English language.

What have you handed us, here? Let's see.

false proposition 1: '7djengo7 is (at time t) playing basketball with @Stripe'
false proposition 2: '7djengo7 is (at time t) reading the Bible with @JudgeRightly'

You show your ignorance of logic by claiming that these two, false propositions constitute a pair of contradictories. Sorry, Professor, but the two propositions you've just handed us are contraries of each other, rather than contradictories. Unlike contraries, by the way, contradictories always come in pairs; and so it's interesting to note your particular ignorance of this elementary fact against the backdrop of your expressed, vicious, irrational hatred of binarity.

 

[blueboy]

An allegorical understanding of the Bible rehabilitates the Bible. Concrete and binary thinkers corrupt the Bible and steal much of its rationality.

There you go. Rehabilitates - so true - such a right word to use.

There's not a two universe system in which natural order drives the physical world with one set of laws and fundamentalist religion has another universe in which natural order gets overthrown and contradicted according to belief alone.

If God is the Creator, then natural order, natural laws, religious laws and realities all belong to a single truth. Natural law, natural order are best described by science, which I might add can only detail, examine and verify the attributes of natural order. Religion is about the essence of natural order which is abstract, esoteric, suggested by inference and includes the spiritual component of being human.

The entire stage of events that unfold across the breadth of the Bible landscape do so while still adhering to the laws of natural order, a natural order Created by God, not science and as valid and immutable as any other aspect of Creation. The Bible is a work by which to develop the human spiritual landscape, not contradict proven science. Science and religion are one and the same.

Belief in a literal global Flood beggars belief. It is an utter impossibility on so many levels that it's staggering to think that such beliefs can still exist in 2022. Jesus goes out of His way to restore the sight of a blind person, (spiritually blind, not literally blind) and His Father destroys all of humanity except 8 who interbreed us back to 8 billion in 3,500 years. The Son is concerned about the health of a single human and His Father whom He obeys, whom He mirrors without question, destroyed humanity and all life.

This is why people are being inoculated against religion, because there is no greater, inflexible certainty than the certainty that is derived by ignorance.

 

[Right Divider]

Belief in a literal global Flood beggars belief.

Appeal to the stone is a logical fallacy. Make some actual argument.

It is an utter impossibility on so many levels that it's staggering to think that such beliefs can still exist in 2022.

Another appeal to the stone. You're opinions are useless and wrong.

Jesus goes out of His way to restore the sight of a blind person, (spiritually blind, not literally blind) and His Father destroys all of humanity except 8 who interbreed us back to 8 billion in 3,500 years.

Demonstrate the PROBLEM instead of appealing to the stone.

This is why people are being inoculated against religion, because there is no greater, inflexible certainty than the certainty that is derived by ignorance.

The only ignorance being demonstrated in this thread is yours.

 

[Idolater]

There you go. Rehabilitates - so true - such a right word to use.

There's not a two universe system in which natural order drives the physical world with one set of laws and fundamentalist religion has another universe in which natural order gets overthrown and contradicted according to belief alone.

If God is the Creator, then natural order, natural laws, religious laws and realities all belong to a single truth. Natural law, natural order are best described by science, which I might add can only detail, examine and verify the attributes of natural order. Religion is about the essence of natural order which is abstract, esoteric, suggested by inference and includes the spiritual component of being human.

The entire stage of events that unfold across the breadth of the Bible landscape do so while still adhering to the laws of natural order, a natural order Created by God, not science and as valid and immutable as any other aspect of Creation. The Bible is a work by which to develop the human spiritual landscape, not contradict proven science. Science and religion are one and the same.

Belief in a literal global Flood beggars belief. It is an utter impossibility on so many levels that it's staggering to think that such beliefs can still exist in 2022. Jesus goes out of His way to restore the sight of a blind person, (spiritually blind, not literally blind) and His Father destroys all of humanity except 8 who interbreed us back to 8 billion in 3,500 years. The Son is concerned about the health of a single human and His Father whom He obeys, whom He mirrors without question, destroyed humanity and all life.

This is why people are being inoculated against religion, because there is no greater, inflexible certainty than the certainty that is derived by ignorance.

You are an idiot. All of you. However many there are of you. Idiot.