The false gospel of grace

[Clete]

And yet the main theme that people are told is the law is done away with...

Do you mean like this...

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.​

Isn't fascinating how Paul was repeatedly accused of preaching that believers have license to sin that grace may abound?

Have you ever, even one single time in your whole life been accused of preaching such a thing? Would it even be possible for someone to misunderstand your gospel message in such a way? If not, then it is you who are preaching a false gospel because the fact that we ought not sin that grace may abound doesn't mean that it wouldn't do so. In fact, it absolutely would, otherwise grace would be law.

Romans 4: 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”​

grace takes care of your sins,

I've never heard anyone but you use this phrase, not in the way you intend it anyway. It is Christ's blood that takes care of sin. Grace is what imputes that forgiveness to me, which is God's response to my belief. It is neither my good works nor my avoidance of sin that promps God to hide me in Christ and impute His righteousness to me but rather it is my faith in Him and in His finished work at the Cross, His resurrection from the dead and NOTHING else.

....don't worry its all fine to keep on sinning.

Yet another phrase that I have never heard anyone preach - ever! Not even one single time have I ever heard anyone ever say that is was fine to keep on sinning. I've heard plenty of people get slanderously reported as having preached this, the Apostle Paul being the most prominent, but the whole point is that the accusation was slanderous (i.e. not true).

Who exactly are these preachers of whom you speak anyway? Can you name one?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Right Divider]

What you are saying is that if you are not a Jew you cannot be a follower of Jesus

No I am not saying that and I get very tired of these FALSE accusations.

What I am saying is simply what the Bible says. There was a time that God separated Israel from the other people on earth. When Jesus came, they were still His people. Gentiles were always allowed to join with Israel.

Then, God did something different and Israel was no longer separate. They were FALLEN just like the vast majority of gentiles. God conclude THEM ALL in unbelief that He might has mercy on them all (alike). This was revealed to and through the apostle Paul.

Someday, when Christ returns to establish His kingdom, God will restore Israel to their prominent place above the gentile nations.

It's all very clear in the Bible.

 

[Bright Raven]

No I am not saying that and I get very tired of these FALSE accusations.

What I am saying is simply what the Bible says. There was a time that God separated Israel from the other people on earth. When Jesus came, they were still His people. Gentiles were always allowed to join with Israel.

Then, God did something different and Israel was no longer separate. They were FALLEN just like the vast majority of gentiles. God conclude THEM ALL in unbelief that He might has mercy on them all (alike). This was revealed to and through the apostle Paul.

Someday, when Christ returns to establish His kingdom, God will restore Israel to their prominent place above the gentile nations.

It's all very clear in the Bible.

So do you agree that the "other" sheep in John 10:16 are Gentiles?

 

[Right Divider]

So do you agree that the "other" sheep in John 10:16 are Gentiles?

BR... please try to pay attention and use logical reasoning.

NO, the other SHEEP are NOT gentiles... God never uses that term to describe gentiles.... God uses that term to speak about His people, Israel.

I demonstrated CLEARLY from the scripture that the "other sheep" were Israelite's scattered into gentiles lands.

Paul NEVER calls believers sheep. The word only shows up ONCE in all of Paul's epistles

Rom 8:35-37 KJV Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. (37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.​

Here Paul is QUOTING the old testament and saying NAY (NO) we are NOT "sheep for the slaughter".

 

[Clete]

So do you agree that the "other" sheep in John 10:16 are Gentiles?

I very much doubt it!

Not only is the term "sheep" used consistently throughout the bible as a symble of Israel, (a big reason being because of the Passover Lamb coming through Israel), but also Jesus had not come but to the "the lost sheep of the House of Israel" (Matthew 15:24) and so any referrence to Gentiles here would have been out of place, or, at the very least, cryptic in the extreme (i.e. meaningless to His audience).

It seems much more reasonable to think that Jesus is simply saying that He intends to gather together all the Jews who were scattered all over the place (i.e. outside of Israel). Jesus even used this idea of scattered sheep just a couple a verses before...

John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.​

And it is a common theme throughout the bible...

Ezekiel 11:16
Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Although I have cast them far off among the Gentiles, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet I shall be a little sanctuary for them in the countries where they have gone.” ’ 17 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.” ’

Ezekiel 34:20 ‘Therefore thus says the Lord God to them: “Behold, I Myself will judge between the fat and the lean sheep. 21 Because you have pushed with side and shoulder, butted all the weak ones with your horns, and scattered them abroad, 22 therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep. 23 I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them—My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd.

30 Thus they shall know that I, the Lord their God, am with them, and they, the house of Israel, are My people,” says the Lord God.’
31 “You are My flock, the flock of My pasture; you are men, and I am your God,” says the Lord God.

Psalms 44:11
You have given us up like sheep intended for food,
And have scattered us among the nations.

Jeremiah 31:10
“Hear the word of the Lord, O nations,
And declare it in the isles afar off, and say,
‘He who scattered Israel will gather him,
And keep him as a shepherd does his flock.’

Jeremiah 50:17
“Israel is like scattered sheep;
The lions have driven him away.
First the king of Assyria devoured him;
Now at last this Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon has broken his bones.”

18 Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel:
“Behold, I will punish the king of Babylon and his land,
As I have punished the king of Assyria.
19 But I will bring back Israel to his home....

Micah 2:12
“I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob,
I will surely gather the remnant of Israel;
I will put them together like sheep of the fold,​

 

[Bright Raven]

BR... please try to pay attention and use logical reasoning.

NO, the other SHEEP are NOT gentiles... God never uses that term to describe gentiles.... God uses that term to speak about His people, Israel.

I demonstrated CLEARLY from the scripture that the "other sheep" were Israelite's scattered into gentiles lands.

Paul NEVER calls believers sheep. The word only shows up ONCE in all of Paul's epistles

Rom 8:35-37 KJV Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. (37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.​

Here Paul is QUOTING the old testament and saying NAY (NO) we are NOT "sheep for the slaughter".

Are the other sheep mentioned in John 10:16 Gentiles.

from gotquestions.org

To understand who the “other sheep” from John 10:16 are, we must begin with the context of the verse and examine the whole passage. We know from many Bible passages that sheep are a symbol of true believers who follow Christ, their true Shepherd. His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. If He says that there are “other” sheep, then we must identify the original sheep that the “others” are different from.

Beginning in chapter 9 of John, we find Jesus discoursing at great length with the Pharisees after He healed a man who was born blind. He compares the man’s simple faith with the unbelief of the Pharisees and condemns them for their willful spiritual blindness. He begins by denouncing the false shepherds of Israel—the blind, self-appointed leaders who drew the people away from the true knowledge and kingdom of their Messiah (John 9:39-41). Then in chapter 10, He explains at great length the nature of true sheep, those who follow the Good Shepherd, sent and appointed by God. True sheep are those who listen to the voice of the Shepherd (v. 3) and follow Him (v. 4) and know Him (v. 14). He can only be speaking here of the true sheep of Israel because, up to that point, His ministry was confined to the sheep of Israel.

In verse 16, Jesus refers to the “other sheep,” and those can only be sheep that are outside of Israel, in other words, Gentiles. But the Gentiles who would follow Him are no less sheep than the true sheep of Israel. In fact, Jesus makes it clear that the Gentile sheep would also hear His voice and follow Him, and, eventually, there would be only one flock and one Shepherd. This is the mystery of the universal body of Christ, the church, which Paul refers to in Ephesians 3:6, “This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.” A mystery in Scripture is usually something not revealed previously, and this mystery—one universal church with both Jews and Gentiles brought together in one body in the Messiah—was so shocking to the Pharisees that they accused Jesus of being a demon-possessed lunatic (John 10:20-21).

Paul’s commission from Christ was to “preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ” (Ephesians 6:8) because the Gentiles, the “other sheep,” needed to be brought into the fold of the true Shepherd. Paul explains in Romans 11:16-36 the mystery of the church by using the imagery of a branch (the Gentiles) being grafted into the tree (Israel). Israel has been temporarily set aside until the “full number of the Gentiles has come in” (Romans 11:25). This is occurring now in the Church Age, but eventually both Jews and Gentiles will live in glorious harmony in the Millennial Kingdom and then in eternity when all true sheep will follow their Shepherd forever as one body.

 

[Right Divider]

Are the other sheep mentioned in John 10:16 Gentiles.

from gotquestions.org

gotqestions is NOT an authority on the Bible... The Bible is!!

You've been shown CLEAR, IN CONTEXT scripture. Ignore it at your own loss.

 

[Bright Raven]

gotqestions is NOT an authority on the Bible... The Bible is!!

You've been shown CLEAR, IN CONTEXT scripture. Ignore it at your own loss.

OK but the fold is Israel and other sheep are from outside the fold. I don't understand how you guys do not see that other sheep have to be other than Israel.

 

[Right Divider]

OK but the fold is Israel and other sheep are from outside the fold. I don't understand how you guys do not see that other sheep have to be other than Israel.

Because they are NOT "other than Israel". They are Israelites scattered abroad.

As Clete has also noted, at that time Jesus was NOT addressing anyone but Israel.

We don't understand how you cannot see that.

 

[Bright Raven]

Because they are NOT "other than Israel". They are Israelites scattered abroad.

As Clete has also noted, at that time Jesus was NOT addressing anyone but Israel.

We don't understand how you cannot see that.

Then how do you explain the woman at the well in John 4? Did He speak to those outside of Israel or not?

 

[Right Divider]

Then how do you explain the woman at the well in John 4? Did He speak to those outside of Israel or not?

She was not a gentile, she was a Samaritan.

Samaria is part of the land of Israel.

View attachment 26885

It says where she is from many times right there in John 4:

Joh 4:4-9 KJV And he must needs go through Samaria. (5) Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. (6) Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour. (7) There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink. (8) (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.) (9) Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.​

Your primary problem is that you have treated the myths of Churchianity as the truth and have rejected the Bible.

 

[Bright Raven]

Because they are NOT "other than Israel". They are Israelites scattered abroad.

As Clete has also noted, at that time Jesus was NOT addressing anyone but Israel.

We don't understand how you cannot see that.

If they are Jews why is the term "other" used? It seems to assume that there are others than jews.

 

[Right Divider]

If they are Jews why is the term "other" used? It seems to assume that there are others than jews.

Other in THAT CONTEXT refers to location and not lineage.

P.S. Why did you completely ignore this post? http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...pel-of-grace&p=5351403&viewfull=1#post5351403

 

[Bright Raven]

Other in THAT CONTEXT refers to location and not lineage.

P.S. Why did you completely ignore this post? http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...pel-of-grace&p=5351403&viewfull=1#post5351403

Because I agree with your interpretation that she is part Jew. You do realize that many study materials disagree with your position on this entire topic, don't you?

 

[Right Divider]

Because I agree with your interpretation that she is part Jew. You do realize that many study materials disagree with you position, don't you?

You do realize that popularity is not proof of truth, don't you?

You are clinging to myths and avoiding truth.

 

[Bright Raven]

You do realize that popularity is not proof of truth, don't you?

You are clinging to myths and avoiding truth.

I will agree to disagree with you. Other still means something other that what is proposed.

 

[Right Divider]

I will agree to disagree with you. Other still means something other that what is proposed.

Other SHEEP cannot refer to gentiles because God NEVER refers to gentiles that way anywhere in the Bible.

So go on believing your myth. You clearly love it more than the Word of God.

 

[Bright Raven]

Other SHEEP cannot refer to gentiles because God NEVER refers to gentiles that way anywhere in the Bible.

So go on believing your myth. You clearly love it more than the Word of God.

Why do others disagree with you, ie Complete Jewish Bible, Discover God Study Bible, Ryrie Study Bible?

 

[Right Divider]

Why do others disagree with you, ie Complete Jewish Bible, Discover God Study Bible, Ryrie Study Bible?

Are you, once again, trying to use the fallacious logic that something is true based on how many people believe it?

Instead, why don't you address the arguments?

Where, ANYWHERE, in the Bible does God refer to gentiles (believers or not) as SHEEP?

He does not, ever ... God refers to Israel as His sheep.

Why don't you also address the fact that Paul never calls any believer a sheep in any of his epistles?

Why do ignore what I post and just keep going back to your Churchianity?

I would hope that you would be more serious about the facts instead of who believes what.

 

[Bright Raven]

Why do ignore what I post and just keep going back to your Churchianity?

. Because you are lost in your unbelief and the fact that Other sheep will be brought into the fold. You have seen where many have believed that the others in verse 16 0f John 10 are Gentiles, who else would it be. Other Jews in the dispersion? Where is your proof?