ECT The failure of the Bible or God is not resolved by a future Israel

[Lazy afternoon]

Imagine being a people that can do no wrong, that even when we do the most evil thing of all God has pledged to bring good and blessing out of it.

THAT is the Jews. Their fall has brought blessing to the world, their return to favour [Paul teaches] will be life from the dead.

Everytime a Jew believed in Christ since Pentecost was life from the dead, like everyone else---

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

There will be no rapture until the nation of Israel is born again.

The nation of Israel in the middle east is a work of man, supported by the works of unsanctified Christians.

The spirit of antichrist lives in the lives of believers and are the persecuters of true men of faith, as throughout history since Cain.

Unbelievers generally live peaceable with the true saints, and in blessing them, they end up being saved, while those who think they are really something, end up being lost.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.


LA

 

[Hawkins]

If someone can show where the truth of the Bible or God, according to the apostles, finally rests on a view of a future Israel, please do! In Romans, that is never the thing that resolves this problem, or question. The question is resolved in the belief that Christ fulfilled what was promised to Israel/the fathers so that the nations would be able to believe and share in the promises too.

Israel's salvation is revealed to Paul as a mystery:

Romans 11:25-26 (NIV)
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.


but with the condition that;
Romans 9:6 (NIV)
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

 

[Interplanner]

Israel's salvation is revealed to Paul as a mystery:

Romans 11:25-26 (NIV)
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.


but with the condition that;
Romans 9:6 (NIV)
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

But we can't read this with the soundbytism of pop eschatology and Dispensationalism. He was speaking of what was already true then, and the times of the Gentiles simply run to the end of time, in their understanding (in Judaism).

So the qualification you mentioned is very important. There are not two programs going and confusing everyone involved.

 

[Totton Linnet]

But Totten,
He wasn't talking about a future time of blessing. It sounds future in Rom 11 for persuasive reasons, but look closely; he is referring to things now going on. It sounds like its all or nothing about the nation, but look closely, he only means the elect/remnant/"us".

Anything God was trying to get done through Israel was completed says Acts 13. Everything promised was fufilled by God raising Christ from the dead (so it is really fulfilled in Christ for Israel). the main thing being: justification from our sins. there is no message about things being done with israel that does not have to do with us being saved/justified from our sins.

Rapture references are far too scant to make such a prediction as your final line. The events of Thess did not go as Paul thought. There has been a delay after the disaster in Israel he saw coming. Do not build on such crumbling material. If there was a treatment about the rapture that was, say, as complete as Rom 1-8 about justification, then we could talk. It is far too scant.

The only reason for the doctrine, anyway, was to show that one group of people that God can get live people to his presence one way, and those who have died another way. There is nothing else to it, and I think they were a bit weak about their question.

Diggalittle deeper.

I would say that to anybody who fails to see the glorious future God has planned for Israel the nation so I mean you no disrespect.

When Paul speaks about "life from the dead" he is speaking about the resurrection of the just. When Jesus comes in the clouds He comes to take His elect away from the wrath about to poured upon the nations.

You talk about election and fail to perceive that the doctrine is taken out of God's dealings with Israel...Jacob was chosen, elected, before he did good or bad....therefore election is not on the basis of anything Israel has ever done, only upon that God chose them.

When you read the 11th chapter of Romans, understand that Paul has been dealing quite exhaustively on the subject of the Jews, now in the 11th is the summing up of all he has been saying.

And he sums up "so I ask then have they stumbled so as to fall? by no means but through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles so as to make Israel jealous

Now if their trespass means riches for the world and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles how much more will their FULL inclusion mean?

 

[Interplanner]

Diggalittle deeper.

I would say that to anybody who fails to see the glorious future God has planned for Israel the nation so I mean you no disrespect.

When Paul speaks about "life from the dead" he is speaking about the resurrection of the just. When Jesus comes in the clouds He comes to take His elect away from the wrath about to poured upon the nations.

You talk about election and fail to perceive that the doctrine is taken out of God's dealings with Israel...Jacob was chosen, elected, before he did good or bad....therefore election is not on the basis of anything Israel has ever done, only upon that God chose them.

When you read the 11th chapter of Romans, understand that Paul has been dealing quite exhaustively on the subject of the Jews, now in the 11th is the summing up of all he has been saying.

And he sums up "so I ask then have they stumbled so as to fall? by no means but through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles so as to make Israel jealous

Now if their trespass means riches for the world and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles how much more will their FULL inclusion mean?

That fulness means if a lot of them believed the Gospel and started being missionaries with it like I am. Stay in the present with Paul (v13). The chapter is rhetorical, not predictive. He's trying to use even some envy to get them to do what their mission actually is, first mentioned back in 10:14-16.

When I refer to digging deeper, I mean questions like "Will God set up Judaism again now that the Gospel is here?" The NT answer is resoundingly no. Some people spend way too much time in the OT by itself without checking to see what the NT says about it. It is veiled. The veil is only removed in Christ.

God has a glorious future in the NHNE for those who have believed in Christ. He has discharged everything that deals with Israel; it is no different than His dealing with Gambia or Estonia or Honduras.

 

[Totton Linnet]

That fulness means if a lot of them believed the Gospel and started being missionaries with it like I am. Stay in the present with Paul (v13). The chapter is rhetorical, not predictive. He's trying to use even some envy to get them to do what their mission actually is, first mentioned back in 10:14-16.

When I refer to digging deeper, I mean questions like "Will God set up Judaism again now that the Gospel is here?" The NT answer is resoundingly no. Some people spend way too much time in the OT by itself without checking to see what the NT says about it. It is veiled. The veil is only removed in Christ.

God has a glorious future in the NHNE for those who have believed in Christ. He has discharged everything that deals with Israel; it is no different than His dealing with Gambia or Estonia or Honduras.

The NT has PLENTY to say, the kingdom of heaven IS the thousand year reign....many are preaching the kingdom of heaven but they have taken the actual kingdom out of their message.

So people are left with something airy fairy, pie in the sky. Nobody has a CLUE as to what this kingdom is....yet it is what the world yearns for, it is what the philosophers, the scientists, the politicians and the religions all teach, a righteous reign, peace and prosperity for all...no more sorrow, no more sickness, no pain

It's what everybody wants....apart perhaps sadly the righteous bit.

When Jesus came preaching THAT is what He was saying "repent, believe the good news, the kingdom of God is at hand"

Everyone KNEW what He meant, all the promises in the later chapters of Isaiah was about to be fulfilled....they wanted this kingdom, but as it turned out they despised the King

Now when you read those promises God made in Isaiah, that Israel will become the greatest nation, swords into ploughshare etc

What are you going to do? spiritualize them? and now say that after thousands of years God was now going to give these things to others?

Is that what you think?

Well why may God now not say to the church, "I have held out my hands to you all the day long...I will give this kingdom to others"

You say that is how He treated the Jews....beware what you think of them Jews bro. Israel and God's total faithfulness to them is an assurance to us that what God has promised He will perform to the letter.

 

[Interplanner]

The promises to the fathers were fulfilled in the resurrection, Acts 13's sermon, Gal 3, etc.

God was not offering Israel a theocratic kingdom through Christ when Jesus came. That is actually a belief of Judaism. Are you actually a follower of Judaism but don't realize it? See Jn 12:34. Who's got it right?

 

[Totton Linnet]

Read about Joseph, no picture is so accurate a type of Christ.

He was despised by His brethren [who represented all Israel] left for dead, but Joseph became Lord and Saviour to the Gentiles.

Don't you read how at the latter end he was reconciled to his brethren? sure

"You intended it for evil but God intended it for good"

 

[Interplanner]

Yes "to save many" ie the nations. It is all resolved already in the Gospel and in the Christian mission effort. The picture is done; the reality is here.

 

[Totton Linnet]

The promises to the fathers were fulfilled in the resurrection, Acts 13's sermon, Gal 3, etc.

God was not offering Israel a theocratic kingdom through Christ when Jesus came. That is actually a belief of Judaism. Are you actually a follower of Judaism but don't realize it? See Jn 12:34. Who's got it right?

It is a belief of Judaism because God promised it.

 

[Tambora]

Diggalittle deeper.

I would say that to anybody who fails to see the glorious future God has planned for Israel the nation so I mean you no disrespect.

When Paul speaks about "life from the dead" he is speaking about the resurrection of the just. When Jesus comes in the clouds He comes to take His elect away from the wrath about to poured upon the nations.

You talk about election and fail to perceive that the doctrine is taken out of God's dealings with Israel...Jacob was chosen, elected, before he did good or bad....therefore election is not on the basis of anything Israel has ever done, only upon that God chose them.

When you read the 11th chapter of Romans, understand that Paul has been dealing quite exhaustively on the subject of the Jews, now in the 11th is the summing up of all he has been saying.

And he sums up "so I ask then have they stumbled so as to fall? by no means but through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles so as to make Israel jealous

Now if their trespass means riches for the world and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles how much more will their FULL inclusion mean?

Romans 11 KJV
(28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Yes "to save many" ie the nations. It is all resolved already in the Gospel and in the Christian mission effort. The picture is done; the reality is here.

no no it is not done, don't kid yourself, after 2,000 years it is not done.

It IS resolved by God, and in the gospel....but the Christian mission has in large measure failed

 

[Totton Linnet]

Romans 11 KJV
(28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Yus beloved by God but despised by the church...how can that be?

 

[Interplanner]

11:28 is not resolved in the future, though. It already is resolved. You don't stop asking the Jews to believe the Gospel just because they are opposed to it. But faith in the Gospel is where God wants them and that Gospel is what he has provided for them.

The verse itself shows that there is a distinction between the ethnos and those who believe. Those who believe have what God promised, as Acts 13's sermon and Gal 3 says so clearly.

There is no outstanding promise for the ethnos as such. There is no difference between Israel, Barbados, New Zealand, or Kenya anymore as ethnos go. Only on whether there is faith in Christ for justification or not.

There are not 2 programs, peoples, agendas, gospels, in the Bible running in secret dissonance from each other. Acts 13, Rom 3,4, Gal 3, 4, 2 Cor 3-5, Heb 8-10, etc should tell you that. The dissonance comes from Dispensationalism's 2 peoples, 2 programs, which is an actual chapter title by C. Ryrie in his book (Dallas TS professor for years).

 

[Interplanner]

"Look at how many Jews have believed"--Acts 24. And that is not even a head count of how many Gentiles believed.

I think that you think "saved" for Israel means a restored theocratic kingdom. That is Judaism. Have you ever read Gal 3? v17 says Judaism replaced the Promise to the nations with the Law for Israel. That's Judaism. It is not the Gospel.

 

[Totton Linnet]

11:28 is not resolved in the future, though. It already is resolved. You don't stop asking the Jews to believe the Gospel just because they are opposed to it. But faith in the Gospel is where God wants them and that Gospel is what he has provided for them.

The verse itself shows that there is a distinction between the ethnos and those who believe. Those who believe have what God promised, as Acts 13's sermon and Gal 3 says so clearly.

There is no outstanding promise for the ethnos as such. There is no difference between Israel, Barbados, New Zealand, or Kenya anymore as ethnos go. Only on whether there is faith in Christ for justification or not.

There are not 2 programs, peoples, agendas, gospels, in the Bible running in secret dissonance from each other. Acts 13, Rom 3,4, Gal 3, 4, 2 Cor 3-5, Heb 8-10, etc should tell you that. The dissonance comes from Dispensationalism's 2 peoples, 2 programs, which is an actual chapter title by C. Ryrie in his book (Dallas TS professor for years).

It's why I say diggalittle deeper for what IS the programn?

That Israel be abolished? no

That we who have been aliens and strangers to their commonwealth [do you accept that as the kingdom?] should be brought nigh

That WE should inherit the covenants and the promises [yet without obedience to the law or observance of ordinances]

That WE should be graffed into what is THEIR olive.

They are the root [now buried underground] we are the shoot...the root is holy, if the root is not holy then WE are not holy....the root supports US not we support the root.

The anti-Semitism of the church since earliest days has been a disaster.

 

[Interplanner]

It's why I say diggalittle deeper for what IS the programn?

That Israel be abolished? no

That we who have been aliens and strangers to their commonwealth [do you accept that as the kingdom?] should be brought nigh

That WE should inherit the covenants and the promises [yet without obedience to the law or observance of ordinances]

That WE should be graffed into what is THEIR olive.

They are the root [now buried underground] we are the shoot...the root is holy, if the root is not holy then WE are not holy....the root supports US not we support the root.

The anti-Semitism of the church since earliest days has been a disaster.

But 'the house was left desolate.' This was declared years before 66 AD. If you don't know what 66-70 was like in Judea, you don't know desolate.

God doesn't do anything with ethnos per se. He works with people through Christ alone. Nothing needs to happen in or to modern Israel as an ethnos to complete his redemptive work. No more than in any other ethnos.

 

[Totton Linnet]

We the church Jew/Gentile are not promised an earthly kingdom but a heavenly...but the Israel the nation was ....

 

[Interplanner]

That was a picture of what was coming. The picture is done. Actually from Heb 11 I'm not sure it was even that, because those OT people who had faith were not expecting it. That's why God was disappointed with David and his censuses, temples, wives, etc., it was all a carnal trap.

 

[Totton Linnet]

But 'the house was left desolate.' This was declared years before 66 AD. If you don't know what 66-70 was like in Judea, you don't know desolate.

God doesn't do anything with ethnos per se. He works with people through Christ alone. Nothing needs to happen in or to modern Israel as an ethnos to complete his redemptive work. No more than in any other ethnos.

I say again to you, Israel the nation was promised a kingdom here on earth, if God reneges on them why are you so confident that He will not renege on YOU?

And when God restores Israel as He promised to do then the rest of mankind will seek him.

They aksed Him "Lord will you at this time restore the kingdom?"

Jesus replied "it is not for you to know the times and seasons which the Father holds in His own hands"