HisServant
New member
You need to read him in light of the advent of the Messiah... the Old Testament points to him and the New Testament points back to him. You cannot just pick and chose while taking him out of the equation.
ECT The failure of the Bible or God is not resolved by a future Israel
- Thread starter Interplanner
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You need to read him in light of the advent of the Messiah... the Old Testament points to him and the New Testament points back to him. You cannot just pick and chose while taking him out of the equation.
The great multitude of Rev. ch 7 are not Jews.
The 144000 of Rev.ch 7 are not Jews either.
The Bride of Christ has children like themselves.
The only distinction is the 144000 are resurrected Kings and Priests and the great multitude are mortal children of the millennium.
All are Gods Israel.
LA
achduke;4417553 [B said:
Good verses as is ---
Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Eze 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
Eze 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
Eze 39:3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
Eze 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
Eze 39:5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
Eze 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
Eze 39:10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
Eze 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
Eze 39:13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
Eze 39:15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
Eze 39:16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.
Eze 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
Eze 39:18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
Eze 39:19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
Eze 39:20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
LA
Interplanner
Well-known member
No LA the problem would be the specific group Zech mentioned. Those mentioned in the Isaiah 2 are sincere believers. The whole force of passages about those who attack Israel (what that is is a separate discussion) is that God puts them away. That is the question ach was asking.
So the passage of Zech that those very people will go worship needs qualification--ie, they were part of that nation but didn't participate or approve, etc. Something like that.
I don't think this was meant plainly but is just showing us that there would be a judgement and that distinctions would be made. Between Zech's time and the NT, too many elements are changed to be read plainly/literally.
So the passage of Zech that those very people will go worship needs qualification--ie, they were part of that nation but didn't participate or approve, etc. Something like that.
I don't think this was meant plainly but is just showing us that there would be a judgement and that distinctions would be made. Between Zech's time and the NT, too many elements are changed to be read plainly/literally.
False Prophet
New member
The failure of the Bible or God
God and his word does not fail; your interpretation and expectations are what fail.
God and his word does not fail; your interpretation and expectations are what fail.
HisServant
New member
Bingo.. and dispensationalists have been failing for over 200 years now and they still don't get it.
Here is a list of failed predictions (some dispensationalist and some not..) Just remember dispensationalists... you are associated with these crack pots.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_and_claims_for_the_Second_Coming_of_Christ
Interplanner
Well-known member
The OP of this was about NT eschatology and especially the theme started in Rom 3:3 and returned to in 9-11. The question is also put this way: why don't more Jews just automatically believe? Has there been some kind of failure on God's part?
Modern handling and mistakes are a secondary topic.
Modern handling and mistakes are a secondary topic.
The answer to this question is simple.
If God does not fulfil all His promises that He made to Israel then how can we trust Him to keep all the promises He has made to us?
There are promises made to Israel as yet unfulfilled.
Through the exaltation of Israel, not their fallen state.
The BOC (body of Christ) is exalted by their fall, not their exaltation.
The exaltation of Israel with the nations sharing in their promises is yet future.
And their exaltation will not be according to their righteousness, but will be according to the very name sake of God Himself.
Psalms 106 KJV
(7) Our fathers understood not thy wonders in Egypt; they remembered not the multitude of thy mercies; but provoked him at the sea, even at the Red sea.
(8) Nevertheless he saved them for his name's sake, that he might make his mighty power to be known.
(7) Our fathers understood not thy wonders in Egypt; they remembered not the multitude of thy mercies; but provoked him at the sea, even at the Red sea.
(8) Nevertheless he saved them for his name's sake, that he might make his mighty power to be known.
From beginning to end, Israel's righteousness was not the basis of God choosing them.
For he chose/elected Jacob/Israel in the womb before he had done anything right or wrong.
God's own reputation is at stake here. Either God can be trusted to follow through with His promises, or not. And God has made promises to Israel despite their actions.
No one is expecting Israel to keep their word. We are however expecting God to keep His.
Ezekiel 36 KJV
(21) But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
(22) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
(23) And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
(24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
(25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
(26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
(27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
(28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
(29) I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
(30) And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
(31) Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
(32) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
(33) Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
(34) And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
(35) And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
(36) Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
(37) Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
(38) As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
(21) But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
(22) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
(23) And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
(24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
(25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
(26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
(27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
(28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
(29) I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
(30) And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
(31) Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
(32) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
(33) Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
(34) And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
(35) And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
(36) Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
(37) Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
(38) As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Isaiah 48 KJV
(9) For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.
(10) Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
(11) For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
(9) For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.
(10) Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
(11) For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
Yeppers!
Tambora!
Excellent post, sis.
As majestic in its simple truth as that beautiful lion you've selected as your avatar.
To the Lion of Judah and His Promise to the Twelve Tribes scattered abroad to this very day!
Imagine being a people that can do no wrong, that even when we do the most evil thing of all God has pledged to bring good and blessing out of it.
THAT is the Jews. Their fall has brought blessing to the world, their return to favour [Paul teaches] will be life from the dead.
There will be no rapture until the nation of Israel is born again.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Tambora:
this is not how the apostles taught about the promises of Israel. They are fulfilled in Christ. After that is grasped you can go back to the OT but what the NT has revealed cannot be ignored; the OT is veiled in itself and its meaning is only clear in Christ.
I'm not Totton Linnet.
Interplanner
Well-known member
But Totten,
He wasn't talking about a future time of blessing. It sounds future in Rom 11 for persuasive reasons, but look closely; he is referring to things now going on. It sounds like its all or nothing about the nation, but look closely, he only means the elect/remnant/"us".
Anything God was trying to get done through Israel was completed says Acts 13. Everything promised was fufilled by God raising Christ from the dead (so it is really fulfilled in Christ for Israel). the main thing being: justification from our sins. there is no message about things being done with israel that does not have to do with us being saved/justified from our sins.
Rapture references are far too scant to make such a prediction as your final line. The events of Thess did not go as Paul thought. There has been a delay after the disaster in Israel he saw coming. Do not build on such crumbling material. If there was a treatment about the rapture that was, say, as complete as Rom 1-8 about justification, then we could talk. It is far too scant.
The only reason for the doctrine, anyway, was to show that one group of people that God can get live people to his presence one way, and those who have died another way. There is nothing else to it, and I think they were a bit weak about their question.
That's rich, Interplanner, a books based pseudo expert, purporting to teach you - who invest your time in Scripture itself - about the Bible.
:rotfl:
Interplanner
Well-known member
Interplanner
Well-known member
Why did you quote Tot in order to respond to me?
If you want to discuss what I say, then quote what I say.
You'll have to forgive Inter; he was traveling through Egypt on a Camel at that moment...
Just as he was about to post, he fell into that famous river - Denial, lol