One Eyed Jack
New member
God can and will remove evil from His creation.
The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
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God can and will remove evil from His creation.
Originally posted by Zakath
I posted my observations distilled over time. If you don't like the way they look, well then, don't use those same old arguments and post something along a different tack...
Starting off with such a wonderful attitude, I'm certain we'll be dazzled and amazed.
I concur there was very likely an individual who can be identified as Jesus of Nazareth. Whether he was the Jewish Christ, or messiah, is an article of debate for almost twenty centuries.
Why abruptly?
The image of Jesus of Nazareth that has been promulgated by the Christian church has indeed has a long impact on European society and their colonial empires. In the rest of the world the impact is much less impressive.
Could you please elaborate on your beliefs about what this means? With the thousands of sects of Christianity in the world it's hard to tell what you believe unless you share it with us...
I have used McDowell's first edition (the one that I used almost three decades ago) with students as an excellent demonstration of of shoddy scholarship and poor editorial oversight. I find it less than impressive as an apologetic tool for the Christian cause. Perhaps if you had specific elements of the tome you wished to discuss, we could do so...
You have, perhaps unwittingly, stumbled upon a major point of difference between the theist and atheist. The theist honestly believes that humans need some sort of deity to meet their internal needs, the atheist does not believe this.
This definition is self-contradictory, isn't it? A trusting belief in the veracity of something cannot exist if one does not accept either the belief or the object of the belief. It has little to do with the humanity of the individual and much to do with the existence (or lack thereof) of the object of the faith. In this case, the existence or non-existence of deity.
No need for self-effacing shuffling here, lad. We're all adults (or should be). Hold up your head, stand up for what you believe, and try your best to explain it. I may agree, or I may not. Time will tell...
What's that buzzing sound?
LightSon
New member
Re: Re: The question of evil.
Re: Re: The question of evil.
Yes. In logic we call this unprovable animal "an assumption" or "a given". The given feeds the process of logic. Logic has to start someplace. So if H&F was making a logical argument, he would have to pick a starting place.
H&F's point (as I understood it), was that without the presupposition of God, "evil" has no absolute meaning. In other words, we have to presume an absolute frame of reference if we are going to make an absolute judgment.
So quip. Do you believe in God? Or do you have another set of basic assumptions?
Re: Re: The question of evil.
Yes. In logic we call this unprovable animal "an assumption" or "a given". The given feeds the process of logic. Logic has to start someplace. So if H&F was making a logical argument, he would have to pick a starting place.
H&F's point (as I understood it), was that without the presupposition of God, "evil" has no absolute meaning. In other words, we have to presume an absolute frame of reference if we are going to make an absolute judgment.
So quip. Do you believe in God? Or do you have another set of basic assumptions?
Last edited:
One Eyed Jack
New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: The question of evil.
Re: Re: Re: Re: The question of evil.
Well, to be sure, He's not going to welcome everybody. In fact, many aren't going to be allowed into His realm. Considering that, I (as a believer) would have to agree with your statement above. There is no logic to the claim that He would welcome just anybody.
Re: Re: Re: Re: The question of evil.
Well, to be sure, He's not going to welcome everybody. In fact, many aren't going to be allowed into His realm. Considering that, I (as a believer) would have to agree with your statement above. There is no logic to the claim that He would welcome just anybody.
Husband&Father
New member
<<the argument from evil is simply using acts of evil to demonstrate the logic (or lack thereof) behind the presupposition of god and his moral absolutisms.>>
You can't "use an act of evil" to demonstrate anything unless acts of evil exist. How can an atheist claim evil exists unless he admits absolutes?
If there is evil than an atheist can use it aganist theism. If an atheist belives there is no evil then he has no business accusing God of the misdeed of letting it happen.
Anyone posing "the question of evil" better belive that evil exists, otherwise he is being dishonest and deserves to be called on it.
You can't "use an act of evil" to demonstrate anything unless acts of evil exist. How can an atheist claim evil exists unless he admits absolutes?
If there is evil than an atheist can use it aganist theism. If an atheist belives there is no evil then he has no business accusing God of the misdeed of letting it happen.
Anyone posing "the question of evil" better belive that evil exists, otherwise he is being dishonest and deserves to be called on it.
Husband&Father
New member
Arrogance and Pride are foundational elements of atheism.
Arrogance and Pride are foundational elements of atheism.
Atheists ponder monumental questions; evil, human suffering, eternal damnation and predestination to name just a few. When they fail to come up with conclusive answers they dismiss the questions as unanswerable and dismiss God by concluding that a coherent deity would not have designed such an incoherent world.
Christians know that there are things they don’t know. Christians know that they have limitations. Christians know that they are not the be all and end all. Christians know they are small. A mystery or two or three or a hundred do not insult the sensibilities of a Christian. Christians expect God to be unfathomable, they humble themselves before the God of the universe, the God who spoke and caused the entire cosmos to explode into existence, a God who could use the earth as his foot stool and measures the distance between stars with the span of his hand. Christians are not arrogant enough to presume that they are entitled to or have the capacity to have all the answers any more than a lump of clay is entitled to or has the capacity to say to the potter "why did you make me such"?
Atheists, on the other hand, optimize arrogance. Atheists don’t believe in God, when they look around they see humans as the dominant species and, as far as they can tell, the ultimate beings. Among humans they see themselves as superior, after-all they are intellectually advanced, counted among the few smart enough to figure out that there is no God, and emotionally stronger, not needing the crutch that is the myth that is God.
No God means no objective, absolute, inalienable standards. No standards means no possibility of being wrong, no one’s views or thoughts are any more credible than theirs. Atheists believe themselves to be the measure of all things. By refusing to subordinate themselves to a God they retain the lordship due God. An atheist is not just defending the statement "there is no God", he is affirming the statement "I am as much of a god as any other entity in existence"
That’s why they think they ought to be able to know it all.
In the arrogance that is Atheists thinking "I don’t understand" equates to "It can not be understood". They think so much of themselves that they believe if they don’t have the answer than there is no answer.
They can’t figure out God. They don’t understand how such a being could be.
An atheist reads that God had no beginning and will have no end…he doesn’t get it… it bugs him that he doesn’t get it. He disqualifies God because he doesn’t understand God demonstrating that he believes himself and his own intellect to be the ultimate arbiter of reality.
Arrogance is a fundamental element of atheism.
Job wanted to understand God, he though he had a right to an explanation so God told Job; "you are questioning me? I have a question for you. Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth…tell me if you know". [excuse the crude paraphrase] God went on to ask Job 40 some odd questions that Job had no answer for.
The message to Job was, and to believers and non-believers alike still is, that arrogance toward God is misguided.
What makes you think you are big enough to "know" God? Who are you to demand proof of God’s existence when you can not even begin to explain the existence of a single atom of hydrogen, the simplest of all elements? Who are you to conclusively reject the theory that God created the universe from nothing without offering even the beginnings of a credible theory of how, in the absence of God, it created itself?
Jesus was not arrogant. He cautioned: "Do not put God to the test" Atheists are arrogant. Arrogance and Pride are foundational elements of atheism. Atheists put God to the test and then claim he failed the test they imposed because they are not satisfied.
Arrogance and Pride are foundational elements of atheism.
Atheists ponder monumental questions; evil, human suffering, eternal damnation and predestination to name just a few. When they fail to come up with conclusive answers they dismiss the questions as unanswerable and dismiss God by concluding that a coherent deity would not have designed such an incoherent world.
Christians know that there are things they don’t know. Christians know that they have limitations. Christians know that they are not the be all and end all. Christians know they are small. A mystery or two or three or a hundred do not insult the sensibilities of a Christian. Christians expect God to be unfathomable, they humble themselves before the God of the universe, the God who spoke and caused the entire cosmos to explode into existence, a God who could use the earth as his foot stool and measures the distance between stars with the span of his hand. Christians are not arrogant enough to presume that they are entitled to or have the capacity to have all the answers any more than a lump of clay is entitled to or has the capacity to say to the potter "why did you make me such"?
Atheists, on the other hand, optimize arrogance. Atheists don’t believe in God, when they look around they see humans as the dominant species and, as far as they can tell, the ultimate beings. Among humans they see themselves as superior, after-all they are intellectually advanced, counted among the few smart enough to figure out that there is no God, and emotionally stronger, not needing the crutch that is the myth that is God.
No God means no objective, absolute, inalienable standards. No standards means no possibility of being wrong, no one’s views or thoughts are any more credible than theirs. Atheists believe themselves to be the measure of all things. By refusing to subordinate themselves to a God they retain the lordship due God. An atheist is not just defending the statement "there is no God", he is affirming the statement "I am as much of a god as any other entity in existence"
That’s why they think they ought to be able to know it all.
In the arrogance that is Atheists thinking "I don’t understand" equates to "It can not be understood". They think so much of themselves that they believe if they don’t have the answer than there is no answer.
They can’t figure out God. They don’t understand how such a being could be.
An atheist reads that God had no beginning and will have no end…he doesn’t get it… it bugs him that he doesn’t get it. He disqualifies God because he doesn’t understand God demonstrating that he believes himself and his own intellect to be the ultimate arbiter of reality.
Arrogance is a fundamental element of atheism.
Job wanted to understand God, he though he had a right to an explanation so God told Job; "you are questioning me? I have a question for you. Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth…tell me if you know". [excuse the crude paraphrase] God went on to ask Job 40 some odd questions that Job had no answer for.
The message to Job was, and to believers and non-believers alike still is, that arrogance toward God is misguided.
What makes you think you are big enough to "know" God? Who are you to demand proof of God’s existence when you can not even begin to explain the existence of a single atom of hydrogen, the simplest of all elements? Who are you to conclusively reject the theory that God created the universe from nothing without offering even the beginnings of a credible theory of how, in the absence of God, it created itself?
Jesus was not arrogant. He cautioned: "Do not put God to the test" Atheists are arrogant. Arrogance and Pride are foundational elements of atheism. Atheists put God to the test and then claim he failed the test they imposed because they are not satisfied.
H&F
>>Christians are not arrogant enough to presume that they are entitled
to or have the capacity to have all the answers any more than a lump of clay is entitled to or has the capacity to say to the potter "why did you make me such"?<
Christians ARE arrogant enough to claim that their view of the world MUST BE the only correct view of the world. They think they are the ONLY ones who have the truth, and all others MUST be wrong.
>>Atheists don?t believe in God, when they look around they see humans as the dominant species and, as far as they can tell, the ultimate beings.<<
Atheists don't see humans as the ULTIMATE beings. We're only human.
>>Jesus was not arrogant. He cautioned: "Do not put God to the test"<<
Ofcourse you shouldn't put God to the test. After all, christianity doesn't want you to find out that their sky faery isn't real. If they encouraged the testing of God, they would loose all their believers. It was a pretty smart political move, but there are people who see it for what it is: a ploy to hold on to as many gullible people as possible.
>>Christians are not arrogant enough to presume that they are entitled
to or have the capacity to have all the answers any more than a lump of clay is entitled to or has the capacity to say to the potter "why did you make me such"?<
Christians ARE arrogant enough to claim that their view of the world MUST BE the only correct view of the world. They think they are the ONLY ones who have the truth, and all others MUST be wrong.
>>Atheists don?t believe in God, when they look around they see humans as the dominant species and, as far as they can tell, the ultimate beings.<<
Atheists don't see humans as the ULTIMATE beings. We're only human.
>>Jesus was not arrogant. He cautioned: "Do not put God to the test"<<
Ofcourse you shouldn't put God to the test. After all, christianity doesn't want you to find out that their sky faery isn't real. If they encouraged the testing of God, they would loose all their believers. It was a pretty smart political move, but there are people who see it for what it is: a ploy to hold on to as many gullible people as possible.