The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)
- Thread starter Freak
- Start date
I am getting so tired of these kinds of statements. You have absolutely NO IDEA what you're talking about. You have NO IDEA what makes anyone happy. You have NO IDEA what percentage of Christians would say that their belief in God is a source of happiness. But, by golly, you posted it on tOL so it must be true. :kookoo:
Skeptic
New member
Do you?
I don't recall ever giving a percentage. Anyway, it is irrelevant to my point. However, I'm sure you would hope that most people who call themselves Christians would feel their belief in God is at least one source of happiness. Many (how many? who knows!) Christians have said they were not happy until they "found the Lord."
I know enough about human psychology (based on experience and education) that happiness is a function of a combination of neurochemistry, learning history, and social factors. Belief in God (or any deity) or non-belief in God can be a source of happiness. But, except in cases that might be considered pathological, neither religious nor anti-religious beliefs are ever the only source of happiness for anyone.
Skeptic
New member
How? Let me clarify. I said: "Even for Christians (though many will not admit it), the things that make most people happy have nothing to do with belief in ultimate purposes." This means that, for most people (even Christians), the main reasons for their happiness has nothing to do with belief in ultimate purposes. The main reasons have to do with positive factors relating to family, children, friends, relationships, intimacy, health, job, education, standard of living, etc. However, for the pathological few, ultimate purposes are the only reason for their happiness.
No one believes in nothingness. This includes atheists and agnostics. For many atheists, their non-belief (i.e. nontheism, or non-belief in God) can be one of many sources of satisfaction and happiness. This does not mean they believe in nothing. Only dead people believe in nothing.
However, there are the pathological few. Many of those individuals live in psychiatric hospitals.
For one, I'm a he.
I think the only way to judge if you are happy is by listening to your emotions. You have to listen to them and understand what they mean.
I've mastered this some time ago, and since then I constantly listen to my emotions, although I don't follow its advice in all circumstances. Fear, for example, should be approached with caution.
Love, however, as friendship and happyness are very, very important to me. I listen to what my heart tells me and try to do the "right" thing. I feel happy. If anyone thinks I may be deceiving myself, let me tell you this: knowing how you feel inside is extremely important when dealing with people. I can read my own emotions pretty well now, and the emotions of those close to me. Their happyness is very important to me.
AS to the "god shaped hole": humaity has been filling their insatiable curiosity for ages and ages with ideas and images. The "god shaped hole" is what curiosity is about: the awnsers to life's most important questions, "Who am I", "What am I doing here" "how did I get here", "what happens to me when I die". Some cannot be awnsered, others have a wildly diverging range of possible awnsers. But most importantly, WE ARE ALL CURIOUS ABOUT THE AWNSERS.
As long as that curiosity continues, we will NEVER stop looking for the "correct" awnsers. The only problem is: there is no way to determine what awnser is the "correct" one. "faith" is an awnser according to some, but I believe it isn't mainly because WANTING something to be true often distords our interpretation of reality strong enough so that, to that person, it may appear true.
The "god shaped hole" has been filled with gods before, and will in the future be continued to be filled with gods. However, so far in history, almost all gods that once filled that hole are no longer believed in. The Greek, Roman, Norse, Celtic, Egyptian and Babylonian gods are all gone. Only a few remain, those who are very good at surviving because they have an awnser to all questions and also SCARE the believer into staying a believer.
Fear is a very powerfull but often trecherous emotion. Letting yourself be guided by fear is often not the "right" thing to do. Most of us have grown up, letting go of our parents despite our fear of the unknown. I believe that this fear is what drives people to believe in god. They fear the possible awnsers to the questions, and therefore WANT to believe in something that has the most "preferred" awnsers. After all, everyone will want to live forever. However, accepting that there will come a time when you no longer exist will set you free, releases you from fear. And THAT is ultimately why I'm an atheist. I let it go.......
I think the only way to judge if you are happy is by listening to your emotions. You have to listen to them and understand what they mean.
I've mastered this some time ago, and since then I constantly listen to my emotions, although I don't follow its advice in all circumstances. Fear, for example, should be approached with caution.
Love, however, as friendship and happyness are very, very important to me. I listen to what my heart tells me and try to do the "right" thing. I feel happy. If anyone thinks I may be deceiving myself, let me tell you this: knowing how you feel inside is extremely important when dealing with people. I can read my own emotions pretty well now, and the emotions of those close to me. Their happyness is very important to me.
AS to the "god shaped hole": humaity has been filling their insatiable curiosity for ages and ages with ideas and images. The "god shaped hole" is what curiosity is about: the awnsers to life's most important questions, "Who am I", "What am I doing here" "how did I get here", "what happens to me when I die". Some cannot be awnsered, others have a wildly diverging range of possible awnsers. But most importantly, WE ARE ALL CURIOUS ABOUT THE AWNSERS.
As long as that curiosity continues, we will NEVER stop looking for the "correct" awnsers. The only problem is: there is no way to determine what awnser is the "correct" one. "faith" is an awnser according to some, but I believe it isn't mainly because WANTING something to be true often distords our interpretation of reality strong enough so that, to that person, it may appear true.
The "god shaped hole" has been filled with gods before, and will in the future be continued to be filled with gods. However, so far in history, almost all gods that once filled that hole are no longer believed in. The Greek, Roman, Norse, Celtic, Egyptian and Babylonian gods are all gone. Only a few remain, those who are very good at surviving because they have an awnser to all questions and also SCARE the believer into staying a believer.
Fear is a very powerfull but often trecherous emotion. Letting yourself be guided by fear is often not the "right" thing to do. Most of us have grown up, letting go of our parents despite our fear of the unknown. I believe that this fear is what drives people to believe in god. They fear the possible awnsers to the questions, and therefore WANT to believe in something that has the most "preferred" awnsers. After all, everyone will want to live forever. However, accepting that there will come a time when you no longer exist will set you free, releases you from fear. And THAT is ultimately why I'm an atheist. I let it go.......
Shaun
New member
atheism? been there, done that
atheism? been there, done that
Hey, one quick question Shima (man, am I good at interrupting discussions):
How do you deny the existence of objective morality?
And if you don't, then where does that objective morality come from?
Shaun
"If the universe has no meaning, we never should have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be a word without meaning." -C.S. Lewis
atheism? been there, done that
Hey, one quick question Shima (man, am I good at interrupting discussions):
How do you deny the existence of objective morality?
And if you don't, then where does that objective morality come from?
Shaun
"If the universe has no meaning, we never should have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be a word without meaning." -C.S. Lewis
>>How do you deny the existence of objective morality?<<
Simple. The definition of "Objective morality" would be one where all moral "rights" and "wrongs" depend solely on the objective standard, regardless of circumstances or the influence of society. We so far haven't found this "objective standard" but what we HAVE found is that "right" and "wrong" differ from one society to the next. IN one society cation A is considdered "right" while in another society it is considdered "wrong". There is no way to determine which (if any) is correct because we cannot measure the action against this "objective standard". I therefore conclude that morality is subjective to experience, circumstances and interpretation.
Simple. The definition of "Objective morality" would be one where all moral "rights" and "wrongs" depend solely on the objective standard, regardless of circumstances or the influence of society. We so far haven't found this "objective standard" but what we HAVE found is that "right" and "wrong" differ from one society to the next. IN one society cation A is considdered "right" while in another society it is considdered "wrong". There is no way to determine which (if any) is correct because we cannot measure the action against this "objective standard". I therefore conclude that morality is subjective to experience, circumstances and interpretation.
>>That "god-shaped-hole" in every humans heart isn't about curiosity Shima, it's about love.<<
Perhaps, perhaps not. What I do know is that almost all gods who ever filled it no longer are believed in. There are only a very few who still have believers today.
What I know about love is that it doesn't depend in any way on the particaul faith of the person who is in love. Love is an emotion and as such has its origin inside the human body somewhere. Love can be compared to eating lots of chocolate, so I would conclude that love is transmitted through a chemical agent.
That doesn't make love any less mysterious, because we still don't know why certain people generate that emotion inside of us while other people don't. Then again, without the mystery, it probably wouldn't have the appeal it has now.
Perhaps, perhaps not. What I do know is that almost all gods who ever filled it no longer are believed in. There are only a very few who still have believers today.
What I know about love is that it doesn't depend in any way on the particaul faith of the person who is in love. Love is an emotion and as such has its origin inside the human body somewhere. Love can be compared to eating lots of chocolate, so I would conclude that love is transmitted through a chemical agent.
That doesn't make love any less mysterious, because we still don't know why certain people generate that emotion inside of us while other people don't. Then again, without the mystery, it probably wouldn't have the appeal it has now.
Z Man
New member
Those people who worshipped false mythological gods back in the days were only doing what is human; searching for eternal love that can only come from the True God and Creator of all. Those religions failed because their gods were not real; thus the emptiness in their hearts were never completely filled.
I believe that the eternal love and completeness we all seek exists in the God that is spoken of in the Bible, and that Jesus preached of Him as well (not only did He preach of Him, He proved He existed by His lifestyle, death, and resurrection). My feelings and completeness and the changed knowledge of the world around me only strengthens this belief.
I believe that the eternal love and completeness we all seek exists in the God that is spoken of in the Bible, and that Jesus preached of Him as well (not only did He preach of Him, He proved He existed by His lifestyle, death, and resurrection). My feelings and completeness and the changed knowledge of the world around me only strengthens this belief.
Shaun
New member
Uhm, mind listing examples? Last time I did my research on morality in different sociological conditions, selfishness was completely wrong in every single one. The differences you state without proof are very, very small, and vast majorities of civilizations are quite similar in comparison.
Shaun
this argument is old
Skeptic
New member
I believe those people who worship the false mythological Christian God are only doing what too many humans do: searching for love in the wrong places, and basing their beliefs on their emotions and their indoctrination. But, "eternal" love can only come from the imagination. The Christian religion rationally fails because the reality of their God is based on no more evidence than the gods of other religions; thus the emptiness in their hearts is filled with emotional delusions. :kookoo:
I believe that the eternal love and completeness Christians seek exists only in their minds, not in the Bible. Jesus preached of God, but failed to prove He existed. Jesus died, and there is no evidence he ever resurrected. My feelings and completeness derive from my interaction with others and knowing that it is arrogant to think that humans can know such things as absolutes or "eternal purposes". The evidence in the world around me only strengthens this belief. :thumb: