The earth is flat and we never went to the moon

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DFT_Dave

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Dave, I want you to do something for me. I want you to pick up a baseball, and tie a string around it, and then swing that ball around (outside, please, I don't want you breaking any vases).

Then I want you to try to do the same thing, without the string or anything else holding onto the ball. Tell me how difficult it is to keep that ball in orbit around your hand.

Impossible, right?

Yes, God is supernatural, and His power is beyond measure.

But what you're saying is that God is constantly doing a miracle to keep the moon in orbit around the earth, and the earth around the sun. The universe is physical, Dave, and physical objects in this physical universe must follow the laws of the physical universe.

"An object in motion will stay in motion, and an object at rest will stay at rest, all unless acted upon by an outside force."

Dave, when you roll that baseball across a table, what happens? The ball moves in a straight line (disregarding the seams, for a moment), no? That's because there's no outside force (other than gravity, which is keeping it on the table) acting on it to change it's direction. However, when you put a string on the baseball, and try to swing it around your head, there's a force acting on the baseball that is constantly changing it's direction, called centripetal force, caused by the string.

The centripetal force acting upon the moon and the earth is gravity. God doesn't need to supernaturally keep something in orbit around a planet or star, He can use the laws of the universe He created to do so.

Many times in the Bible, God used a natural force to accomplish tasks. Take for example, when Israel was fleeing Egypt, God used the wind to push back the waters of the Red Sea so that His people could walk on dry land, and then again used the wind to bring back the waters onto the egyptian army. Or even when God designed the earth with a way to wipe out His creation if they rebelled. He used the moon's orbit as a tidal pump to build pressure under the hydroplates (see here), which eventually cracked the earth's firmament and flooded the entire earth.

God uses the natural laws of the universe to do thing in the natural universe.

And Dave, when I say I don't believe in the Big Bang, could you please do me the favor of not arguing with me against it? We both agree (correct me if I'm wrong) that it didn't happen. So please stop arguing as if I think it did.

I believe that God created the heavens and the earth (matter) on day one, then used it throughout the rest of the creation week to form everything else. When God created matter, it had intrinsic properties that He used to build the universe. One of those properties was gravitational attraction.

Now, I don't claim to understand gravity, or how it works, or what causes it. But what I do understand is that it DOES work, and that it works well, and that it keeps the tides of the oceans moving, which keeps the ocean life alive. It keeps me grounded, so that when I'm driving along on the highway, and I hit a bump, I stay on the ground, instead of getting catapulted into the air.

I hope you know saying gravity is like a string proves nothing and does not answer the problems of the inconsistency that I have pointed out.

I agree with you that God has set up natural forces to run the universe. Gravity being a force that holds all orbiting bodies in place like a string contradicts that gravity is pulling orbiting bodies toward each other.

If you want to be consistent with God creating a natural force that actually moves these bodies other than gravity then you have to tell us what that force is that God is using or has created. The big bang is one proposal that has been offered and I know of no other. Do you?

--Dave
 

JudgeRightly

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I hope you know saying gravity is like a string proves nothing and does not answer the problems of the inconsistency that I have pointed out.

You're going to have to be more specific then, because I'm still not seeing any inconsistencies.

I agree with you that God has set up natural forces to run the universe. Gravity being a force that holds all orbiting bodies in place like a string contradicts that gravity is pulling orbiting bodies toward each other.

No, Dave, it does not.

The string is what is pulling on the ball, changing it's direction when you swing it around your head. That's what centripetal force is. If the string were to suddenly let go, then that ball would go flying off in a straight line.

In the same way, if the earth were to suddenly disappear, the moon would go flying off into space (into orbit around the sun, unless the sun disappeared, because the earth is in orbit around the sun). Dave, the string is only an analogy of what gravity is, it doesn't explain everything about it, but it's used to give you an idea of how it works.

If you want to be consistent with God creating a natural force that actually moves these bodies other than gravity then you have to tell us what that force is that God is using or has created. The big bang is one proposal that has been offered and I know of no other. Do you?

--Dave

How about their momentum from when God first made the universe? You know, the creation week?

For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. - Exodus 20:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus20:11&version=NKJV

He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing. - Job 26:7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job26:7&version=NKJV

The force that made them move is GOD HIMSELF.

And they've been orbiting ever since, without any need for supernatural intervention.

Dave, what happens when you push a child in a swing? They start to move, yes? What happens when you start to swing the ball around? It starts to orbit your hand, right? When God created the earth, He hung it in orbit around the sun, and he hung it on nothing. There's no physical hook that the earth is attached to, like a mobile. It's "floating" in space. But that doesn't preclude the existence of gravity. If anything, it reinforces it, because you can't have an orbit around a star or planet or moon without gravity.
 

patrick jane

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So you have no idea what constitutes proof of gravity. How can you possibly provide compelling evidence for your position if you do not understand your own arguments? The theory of gravity explains and accurately models what we observe in world around us. All you have is that density makes things fall. Density is not a force, density is a property of matter, one of many, that allows us to compare different substances.
Physicists and astrophysicists don't "understand" gravity. You have no clue what gravity is and you can't prove it. Next up, flight paths. Have you ever even seen how they fly in the southern hemisphere on a globe earth? Nope, your mind is made up.
 

CabinetMaker

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Physicists and astrophysicists don't "understand" gravity. You have no clue what gravity is and you can't prove it.
We may not have a clear understanding of exactly what gravity is other than to say it is a property of mass. That is true in both Newtonian and General Relativity. But we have a very clear understanding of how gravity interacts with objects. You cannot reasonably say that we do not understand the effects of gravity.

Next up, flight paths. Have you ever even seen how they fly in the southern hemisphere on a globe earth? Nope, your mind is made up.
You mean like this:
 

patrick jane

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We may not have a clear understanding of exactly what gravity is other than to say it is a property of mass. That is true in both Newtonian and General Relativity. But we have a very clear understanding of how gravity interacts with objects. You cannot reasonably say that we do not understand the effects of gravity.


You mean like this:
Great, look at that map and tell me why they fly back north to go from Southern South America to Australia.
 

patrick jane

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I certainly didn't set out to believe in a flat or enclosed earth a few days ago. I have always known earth as a globe planet and never questioned it. When I hear astrophysicist say that they are of by a power of 10 to the 120 and they concoct things like dark matter and dark energy etc. it shows that they have no clue of the "cosmos". Most people believe what they're told from school, NASA and Bill Nye. Sagan was a real genius. You can all believe in an endless universe and multi-verses, dark matter, gravity that's so weak yet so strong and everything else they feed you about the "cosmos", I have doubts.

I don't want to believe in a flat earth, it serves no purpose for me. I'm not looking for attention and I'm not excited about being treated like a nutcase. I can't prove a flat or enclosed earth and nobody can prove we're on a globe flying and spinning around a galaxy that flies and spins through a never ending universe.

Psalm 104:5 KJV - Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
 

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Where is the scripture for that? Where is the scripture that says the earth is moving?
Why? Do you believe that God created everything stationary with respect to everything else? Do you not see the planets in motion in the sky?

Note that from the perspective of a person on the surface of the earth, it does appear to be stationary. How would it not?
 

patrick jane

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Why? Do you believe that God created everything stationary with respect to everything else? Do you not see the planets in motion in the sky?

Note that from the perspective of a person on the surface of the earth, it does appear to be stationary. How would it not?
The earth is the center of God's creation, the stars and planets are for signs and seasons, everything in the firmament moves for us.

Proverbs 8:27 (ESV) When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep.
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
 

Right Divider

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The earth is the center of God's creation, the stars and planets are for signs and seasons, everything in the firmament moves for us.

Proverbs 8:27 (ESV) When He established the heavens, I was there, When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep.
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
Nothing that you quoted here precludes the earth from resolving around the sun.

That the earth is likely at the center of the universe would make sense based on all of scripture.

According to your theory, distant stars are moving at many, many times the speed of light around the earth.
 

patrick jane

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Nothing that you quoted here precludes the earth from resolving around the sun.

That the earth is likely at the center of the universe would make sense based on all of scripture.

According to your theory, distant stars are moving at many, many times the speed of light around the earth.
No, I have never said that anything travels at the speed of light. The bodies in the firmament go in a circle around the earth plane, how fast they are travelling is irrelevant.
 

patrick jane

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I can see what happens with this issue. You either think there's a chance we've been lied to for hundreds of years or you don't believe that's possible. If you think there's a chance, one may watch and investigate available data to see if it's possible. If you believe it's impossible to deceive the masses then you will not watch or hear any information that doesn't support a globe. I am definitely in the minority by considering anything not in line with the "official stories" that must not be questioned.

Similar to the evolution hoax and dinosaurs. No dinosaur bones ever discovered until 1676 and that "bone" disappeared. Paleontology was not invented until 1822. It seems that only folks that are seeking dinosaur bones actually find them. There is substantial evidence that the "bones" and "skeletons" are fabricated.
 

Right Divider

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I can see what happens with this issue. You either think there's a chance we've been lied to for hundreds of years or you don't believe that's possible. If you think there's a chance, one may watch and investigate available data to see if it's possible. If you believe it's impossible to deceive the masses then you will not watch or hear any information that doesn't support a globe. I am definitely in the minority by considering anything not in line with the "official stories" that must not be questioned.

Similar to the evolution hoax and dinosaurs. No dinosaur bones ever discovered until 1676 and that "bone" disappeared. Paleontology was not invented until 1822. It seems that only folks that are seeking dinosaur bones actually find them. There is substantial evidence that the "bones" and "skeletons" are fabricated.
You are comparing apples and walruses.
 
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