the church

[God's Truth]

GT, I truly enjoy conversing with you (most of the time). I feel that you usually make at least well formed arguments. I assure you, I am not being insulting. My insults are usually creatively lame and dumb. Just to be honest.

Where in the Bible does it say Jesus is the Church?

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church.

That would not make sense to say He is the Church. He even says He will be coming back for His Church. So how can He come back for Himself? That is paradoxical.

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church.

 

[God's Truth]

To say that the gates of Hell are trying to keep Catholics out is an excellent point. Gates are made as a defense. We, all Christians, should be trying to conquer and destroy Hell by our witnessing for Christ. So yes, the gates could be viewed as trying to keep Catholics out. I know you were trying to make a snide joke about Catholics wanting in/out, but basic battle defense techniques and structural knowledge proved to be the comment's undoing.

And I am in agreement with you on one point. The "gates of hell shall not prevail against it" is not about keeping something in hell. Rather, it is about hell trying to destroy the subject (which is the Church). I would even accept if you believed the church was a mystical body, as opposed to a physical and metaphysical body, and saying that hell shall not prevail against it. Just adding in that little bit since many Protestants ascribe to that ideology.

I do not believe like Protestants.

Jesus went to Hell and the gates of Hell could not keep him there.

 

[jsanford108]

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church.



Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church.

Just a quick question. Do you believe in the hypostatic nature of Christ?


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[God's Truth]

Just a quick question. Do you believe in the hypostatic nature of Christ?


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Admit you were corrected and show that you are glad to know the truth better.

 

[jsanford108]

Admit you were corrected and show that you are glad to know the truth better.

I wasn't corrected. Many times, the Church is called the Body of Christ, due to our union with Him. A body is physical in nature. The verse from Colossians just goes to prove this.

Using the term as seen in Colossians makes sense. It is comparable to calling Christ "the Lamb." He isn't a literal physical lamb. Rather an embodiment of the sacrificial offerings of the Old Testament. Calling the Church the Body of Christ doesn't mean that every time Christ says "my body" He is referring to the Church. Christians become a member of Christ's "body," unified in Him.

All of this only makes sense if you believe in the hypostatic nature of Christ, as well as the entirety of the Bible.


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[jsanford108]

Admit you were corrected and show that you are glad to know the truth better.

Christ is not the Church. There is no logical way that one can derive that from any Scriptural basis. As illustrated by my lovely tangent.


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[God's Truth]

Christ is not the Church. There is no logical way that one can derive that from any Scriptural basis. As illustrated by my lovely tangent.

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church.

Believe what is plainly written.

The Bible says Jesus is the church, and is it not evil to say no it isn't?

 

[jsanford108]

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church.

Believe what is plainly written.

The Bible says Jesus is the church, and is it not evil to say no it isn't?

Luke 22:19
And He took bread, and gave thanks, and broke it, and gave it unto them saying, "This is my Body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me."

These are the words of Christ. Christ is saying that the bread is His Body, further prophesying His death.

Now do you believe the words of Christ or Paul?

If you believe Christ Himself, then my explanation of Colossians makes more sense.

Or we could apply your logic. The Bread = Christ's Body, Christ's Body = the church, therefore the Bread = the church. Seems rather illogical doesn't it.


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[God's Truth]

Luke 22:19
And He took bread, and gave thanks, and broke it, and gave it unto them saying, "This is my Body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me."

These are the words of Christ. Christ is saying that the bread is His Body, further prophesying His death.

Now do you believe the words of Christ or Paul?

If you believe Christ Himself, then my explanation of Colossians makes more sense.

Or we could apply your logic. The Bread = Christ's Body, Christ's Body = the church, therefore the Bread = the church. Seems rather illogical doesn't it.


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What you said has nothing to do with the truth.

You put down Paul which shows you know nothing.

 

[jsanford108]

What you said has nothing to do with the truth.

You put down Paul which shows you know nothing.

I quoted you the words of Christ, Himself. Yet you dismiss them, in favor of a flawed theory based on Paul's teaching (which is extrapolated out of context).

You dismissed Christ. Seems a little worse on your part.


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[God's Truth]

I quoted you the words of Christ, Himself. Yet you dismiss them, in favor of a flawed theory based on Paul's teaching (which is extrapolated out of context).

You dismissed Christ. Seems a little worse on your part.


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You dismiss Jesus and Paul.

 

[jsanford108]

You dismiss Jesus and Paul.

This seems to be the end of the discussion. Rather than expounding on reasons or answering charges, accusations of dismissive action are just being thrown around, with no evidence to support such accusations.


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[Jerry Shugart]

-DELETED-

 

[God's Truth]

This seems to be the end of the discussion. Rather than expounding on reasons or answering charges, accusations of dismissive action are just being thrown around, with no evidence to support such accusations.

There is no use talking to someone who puts down most all of the New Testament.

 

[jsanford108]

There is no use talking to someone who puts down most all of the New Testament.

This demonstrates my point. You throw out an accusation of "puts down most all of the New Testament," yet you have no evidence of it. No proof to back such a charge. And still you just do it. Time and again. I could ask how I put it down, and you would reply with some other unsupported accusation, unrelated to the question.


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[God's Truth]

This demonstrates my point. You throw out an accusation of "puts down most all of the New Testament," yet you have no evidence of it. No proof to back such a charge. And still you just do it. Time and again. I could ask how I put it down, and you would reply with some other unsupported accusation, unrelated to the question.

Anyone can read here where you put down the apostle Paul.

Since you put down Paul, you put down Luke, Acts, Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians, Philemon, Thessalonians, Philippians, Timothy, Titus, and Hebrews. Oh and add Peter too because he says Paul spoke scripture.

 

[jsanford108]

Anyone can read here where you put down the apostle Paul.

Since you put down Paul, you put down Luke, Acts, Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians, Philemon, Thessalonians, Philippians, Timothy, Titus, and Hebrews. Oh and add Peter too because he says Paul spoke scripture.

I never put down Paul. I gave an explanation of his words, with context. And demonstrated my point utilizing the words of Christ. However, you dismissed the words of Christ, because they destroyed your argument. If any one was "putting down," it twas you, dismissing Christ's words.


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[God's Truth]

I never put down Paul. I gave an explanation of his words, with context. And demonstrated my point utilizing the words of Christ. However, you dismissed the words of Christ, because they destroyed your argument. If any one was "putting down," it twas you, dismissing Christ's words.

I will give you another chance.

Paul says Jesus' body is the church.

Are you going to believe what he says or put him down like you did before?


Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church.

 

[jsanford108]

I will give you another chance.

Paul says Jesus' body is the church.

Are you going to believe what he says or put him down like you did before?


Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church.

Here is my counter:

Logic: If Christ is coming back for the church, would it be reasonable to say he is "coming back for his body?"

Luke 22:19
Christ broke the bread and gave it to his disciples saying "This is my Body which will be given up for you."

One of two things is occurring here. Either Paul is disagreeing with Christ (ie: not believing and dismissing Christ) or Paul is talking metaphorically.

How can Paul be metaphorical? Because Christ taught that we have an inheritance with Christ, becoming one with Christ. This would be metaphysical. This reasoning would support and align with both the words of Paul in Colossians, as well as Christ's in Luke (not to mention aligning with the entirety of the New Testament).

Now, you can dismiss my argument. However, I have effectively and truthfully disproven your argument, utilizing Christ's teachings. The only effective and logical attempt to disprove my argument is a counter that is cohesive and is taught by Christ and his disciples. There is no way that your former argument can stand, due to faltering under the scrutiny and examination when compared to the teaching and words of Christ Himself.


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[God's Truth]

Here is my counter:

Logic: If Christ is coming back for the church, would it be reasonable to say he is "coming back for his body?"

We who are saved are IN HIS BODY and those who die before he comes will be coming with him.


1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Luke 22:19
Christ broke the bread and gave it to his disciples saying "This is my Body which will be given up for you."

One of two things is occurring here. Either Paul is disagreeing with Christ (ie: not believing and dismissing Christ) or Paul is talking metaphorically.

If you are insinuating that a building is the body of Christ then you really are in a bad way.

How can Paul be metaphorical? Because Christ taught that we have an inheritance with Christ, becoming one with Christ. This would be metaphysical. This reasoning would support and align with both the words of Paul in Colossians, as well as Christ's in Luke (not to mention aligning with the entirety of the New Testament).

Now, you can dismiss my argument. However, I have effectively and truthfully disproven your argument, utilizing Christ's teachings. The only effective and logical attempt to disprove my argument is a counter that is cohesive and is taught by Christ and his disciples. There is no way that your former argument can stand, due to faltering under the scrutiny and examination when compared to the teaching and words of Christ Himself.

You refuse to believe what is clearly written, and that is Christ's body is the Church.