the church

[meshak]

That explains a lot

Do you accept GM's comments better than KR's?

 

[brewmama]

​

We see here that one of the accusations that the Early Christians face was that of cannibalism, and Justin denounces it completely as an outrageous lie - and instead turns the accusation back on the pagans who actually made such things their practice.

Well of course he did. Yet he still claimed the Real Presence of the Body and Blood.

If some Christians can't see the difference, they have no business partaking of the Holy Eucharist anyway.

 

[God's Truth]

Well of course he did. Yet he still claimed the Real Presence of the Body and Blood.

If some Christians can't see the difference, they have no business partaking of the Holy Eucharist anyway.

The disciples were to treat their get together and eating together as if Jesus Christ himself were there, and he was, but not in the flesh in a wafer; rather, in the Spirit.

 

[brewmama]

The disciples were to treat their get together and eating together as if Jesus Christ himself were there, and he was, but not in the flesh in a wafer; rather, in the Spirit.

According to you, not according to them.

 

[God's Truth]

According to you, not according to them.

Jesus' flesh body was turned into a Spiritual IMMORTAL body.

1 Corinthians 15:53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

How you get that a wafer is literally turned into the REAL flesh of Jesus is just nonsense.

 

[csuguy]

Well of course he did. Yet he still claimed the Real Presence of the Body and Blood.

If some Christians can't see the difference, they have no business partaking of the Holy Eucharist anyway.

I haven't seen him claim the 'Real Presence' of the Body and Blood anywhere in his writings, nor have you provided a reference to him doing so.

 

[brewmama]

I haven't seen him claim the 'Real Presence' of the Body and Blood anywhere in his writings, nor have you provided a reference to him doing so.

So now I'm down to repeating myself. Again.

St. Justin Martyr: " so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh."

 

[csuguy]

So now I'm down to repeating myself. Again.

St. Justin Martyr: " so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh."

And, I repeat, that doesn't say what you want it to. He nowhere claims anything about the 'Real Presence' of Christ in the Eucharist. He says, simply, that 'the food' is the flesh and blood of Jesus once it has been blessed with prayer. No one debates this, all agree that the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of Christ. The question is in what sense is it said to be his flesh and blood.

Is it really his physical flesh and blood? Or is it, rather, a representation of his flesh and blood, done in remembrance of Him? The above quote does nothing to establish that Justin maintained that it was the real flesh and blood of Christ, as opposed to simply representing his flesh and blood. You are being hasty and reading into Justin what you want him to say.

On the other hand, Justin did address the accusations made by others that the Christians literally ate flesh and drank blood - and he made it quite clear that these 'fabulous' accusations were preposterous, and instead turned it back on those pagan sects that actually committed such evil deeds. This gives strong evidence, to the contrary, that he did NOT believe that when he participated in the Eucharist that he was eating and drinking the actual, real flesh and blood of Christ.

 

[chrysostom]

the church
-a place to gather in His name
-a place to worship
-the church feeds us
-the church guides us
-you need the church

 

[brewmama]

And, I repeat, that doesn't say what you want it to. He nowhere claims anything about the 'Real Presence' of Christ in the Eucharist. He says, simply, that 'the food' is the flesh and blood of Jesus once it has been blessed with prayer. No one debates this, all agree that the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of Christ. The question is in what sense is it said to be his flesh and blood.

Is it really his physical flesh and blood? Or is it, rather, a representation of his flesh and blood, done in remembrance of Him? The above quote does nothing to establish that Justin maintained that it was the real flesh and blood of Christ, as opposed to simply representing his flesh and blood. You are being hasty and reading into Justin what you want him to say.

On the other hand, Justin did address the accusations made by others that the Christians literally ate flesh and drank blood - and he made it quite clear that these 'fabulous' accusations were preposterous, and instead turned it back on those pagan sects that actually committed such evil deeds. This gives strong evidence, to the contrary, that he did NOT believe that when he participated in the Eucharist that he was eating and drinking the actual, real flesh and blood of Christ.

LOL! You're starting to sound like Bill Clinton, with it all depends on what "is" is! St. Justin Martyr says that "the food..is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh."

I'll take his word on it over yours.

 

[csuguy]

LOL! You're starting to sound like Bill Clinton, with it all depends on what "is" is! St. Justin Martyr says that "the food..is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh."

I'll take his word on it over yours.

Alot of theology depends upon in what sense something is said. For instance: we all agree that Jesus is the Son of God. However, in what sense is he said to be the "Son" of God?

The everyday usage of "son" would mean that God is his paternal Father who "begat" him - the son is his descendant/offspring.

Another common usage of "son" is to one who has been adopted, and so is accepted into the family as if they were a literal son - with all the social and legal rights and responsibilities of a son.

Still another usage was to call a student a "son", and the teacher/guide/mentor a "father". We see such usage in the churches today, where the priests are called "Father"

And these are just the everyday usages. Then we can start going into some of the different Christologies, like that of Origen, where they start speaking of being "eternally begotten" and the like. You also have people flipping the terms around to get "God the Son" - is that supposed to be equivalent to "the Son of God"?

So - yes - the sense in which something is said matters very much in how we are supposed to interpret and understand it. After all - I doubt you would accept all of the above usages of "son" as equivalent and equally applicable to Christ.

You maybe satisfied with your answer, but it isn't one that is defensible upon real inquiry. Like those who say that the scriptures teach the Trinity because it lists out "Father, Son, Holy Spirit" - you are reading into the text what you want it to say, rather than studying the text for what it actually says.

 

[Crucible]

the church
-a place to gather in His name
-a place to worship
-the church feeds us
-the church guides us
-you need the church

Or, you could just be a liberal :rotfl:

That is what the Roman Church does- it goes with the world when it cannot by blood.

 

[KingdomRose]

Satan "fell" before Adam was created and he took a third of the angels with him.

His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. (Revelation 12:4)​

Satan and his group existed before Jesus was born and Christ preached to them while Noah built his boat. Since then the demons tremble. (James 2:19)

We will judge the disobedient angels at the Last Day.

??? Satan and the demons are already judged. They will be IN THE FIGURATIVE ABYSS for the thousand years (which is the "Last Day"), not able to interfere with our lives here on Earth during that Millennial Reign. Catch up, dearie. You're way behind.

 

[KingdomRose]

What's really funny is how Protestants claim to go by the Bible over everything else, yet blatantly ignore so many things that they don't like.

As can be said for you.

BTW, I'm not Protestant. I don't have any association with the apostate Church that got real influential after the Apostles died. The Protestant movement branched off from that church and retained all of the RCC's doctrines, refusing only to recognize the pope as their leader.

 

[KingdomRose]

Again you insist on the term "literal", which means we are going around in circles. It does seem you are not really listening to what I'm saying. The Orthodox do NOT subscribe to transubstantiation, and I have given sources on that. They do of course subscribe to the Real Presence.

So you're saying that you believe the host and wine are the real body of Christ, yet you don't believe in "transubstantiation." Aren't they the same thing?

 

[brewmama]

So you're saying that you believe the host and wine are the real body of Christ, yet you don't believe in "transubstantiation." Aren't they the same thing?

No. As I already explained in an earlier post, it's a rationalist explanation for something that had always been held as a mystery.

 

[brewmama]

As can be said for you.

BTW, I'm not Protestant. I don't have any association with the apostate Church that got real influential after the Apostles died. The Protestant movement branched off from that church and retained all of the RCC's doctrines, refusing only to recognize the pope as their leader.

Ok. So now I know the depth of your historical ignorance.

 

[KingdomRose]

Re. post #198: You aren't paying attention. Jesus was DEAD. There was no part of him that left the body at his death and went on consciously somewhere else. The "spirit" was merely THE LIFE-FORCE THAT KEPT HIM ALIVE. It wasn't a conscious part of him that left him when he died.

I pointed out that the scripture doesn't say exactly WHEN he went to the spirits in "prison".....leaving the idea entirely open as to the possibility that he went AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, which was as a spirit person. AFTER his resurrection. When he was resurrected he was CHANGED, as Paul wrote when he described the resurrection of the anointed (I Corinthians 15:42-52). Have you bothered to read those verses?

THEN he went and "proclaimed" to the demons in their darkened spiritual state, that their little plan to disrupt his efforts was all for naught. Guess you didn't read my post on that at all. I hope others here will read it.

What kind of silly question is it that you are asking? DEAD PEOPLE DON'T THINK. The scriptures have indicated that over and over. How could people learn about Jesus when they are dead? The ancients will learn about Jesus AFTER THEY ARE RESURRECTED IN THE LAST DAY. Not when they are dead!!!

:kookoo::duh:

 

[KingdomRose]

Again, the Old Testament is about earthy men, and the New Testament is about spiritual man.

If you do not recognize the scriptures I am telling you about just ask for the book and numbers.

I recognize them all. And you do not represent the true understanding of those verses. Jesus quoted from the O.T. throughout his sojourn here on Earth. The O.T. was applicable in his own day as far as he was concerned. Why should we relegate the O.T. to the dust bin? It is as alive today as it was in Jesus' own mouth.

You represent the lie that Satan told to Eve (Genesis 3:4), and therefore you are of your father---the one who told that lie and was called "the father of the lie" by Jesus. (John 8:44) Satan said "you will NOT die." That is what you teach by saying that we have a spirit person inside us that leaves our body when we die. A LIE.

 

[KingdomRose]

Well of course he did. Yet he still claimed the Real Presence of the Body and Blood.

If some Christians can't see the difference, they have no business partaking of the Holy Eucharist anyway.

I don't! I am not one of those who is chosen to rule with Christ over people on Earth.