ECT The "Church" at Acts 2 Was Not the Body of Christ

[Jerry Shugart]

That is 400 year old vernacular Jerry, that is NOT relevant today.

You never answered my question, "What are your credentials in the Greek language?

Whether the modern English translations are 'functionally', or 'formally' equivalent, most of them use "will" in the context of Heb 9:16-17 (NIV), and if they don't then they use words that most people do NOT equivocate about. The context determines the connotations, NOT the reverse.

So are you saying that this translation is correct or not?:

"For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. In the case of a will (diatheke) it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will (diatheke) is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living" (Heb.9:15-16;NIV).​

The fact that you cite (improperly I might add, as His name was Henry Alford and he was a Dean of Canterbury) a book that is over 100 years old to support your antiquated view out of the KJV, means nothing in the grand scheme of things. It is fine to clarify connotations from the Greek, but ONLY if you actually use the proper connotation and understand the Greek...

First of all, Henry Alfold was commonly referred to as Dean Alford. Evidently you are ignorant of that fact. And again, what are your credentials in the Greek language?

Well I definitely know more than the first two, as they are dead and in the context of what I already stated about Murray, what you cited is fine.

So tell me exactly what they said that is wrong.

 

[StanJ]

Yeah, I know. It's your alter ego.

Go troll somewhere else CR

 

[StanJ]

You never answered my question, "What are your credentials in the Greek language?

Yes I did, please pay attention. I know it's hard.

So are you saying that this translation is correct or not?
Heb.9:15-16 (NIV).

IMO, yes it is, based on the context.

First of all, Henry Alfold was commonly referred to as Dean Alford. Evidently you are ignorant of that fact.

Maybe in his day, by his friends and peers, but not on any modern day search engine, but regardless, his take was erroneous based on what scripture DOES teach.

So tell me exactly what they said that is wrong.

I did, and they are not the issue as I said. Make YOUR point, they aren't going to do it for you.

 

[DAN P]

Go troll somewhere else CR

Hi and I read many Greek books , so what !

Even if you see what the Greek tenses and Voices and Moods you will still have to know what the Context is saying !!

I see that Heb 9:15-16 was mentioned , and will like to see your explanation of verse 15 means ??

Want to try ??

By the way DIATHEKE is a transliteralion , do you know WHY ??:rotfl::rotfl:

Can be translated by WILL , COVENANT , AGREEMENT !!

DAN P

 

[StanJ]

Hi and I read many Greek books , so what !
Even if you see what the Greek tenses and Voices and Moods you will still have to know what the Context is saying !!

The context is the same in ANY language.

I see that Heb 9:15-16 was mentioned , and will like to see your explanation of verse 15 means
Want to try

Already have with Jerry, with you NO I don't care to say anything because you're a troll.

By the way DIATHEKE is a transliteralion , do you know WHY ??
Can be translated by WILL , COVENANT , AGREEMENT !!

You're late to the party, THAT has already been established, by ME.

:loser:

 

[Cross Reference]

The context is the same in ANY language.



Already have with Jerry, with you NO I don't care to say anything because you are troll.



You're late to the party, THAT has already been established, by ME.

:loser:

So why the KJV putdown except for your distain in having your mind taxed?

I gave you Galatians 2:20 as an example, you cast aside.

 

[StanJ]

So why the KJV putdown except for your distain in having your mind taxed?
I gave you Galatians 2:20 as an example, you cast aside.

I wasn't addressing you in that post CR, but I don't put down the KJV, I tell it like it is. If those who read it can't get the functional equivalence in modern day terms then they should use a modern day translation.

You gave me Gal 2:20 (NIV) for what? Make a point.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Make YOUR point, they aren't going to do it for you.

It does no good to make a point with you because your mind is closed to the truth. I am still waiting for your response to my remarls about what you said here:

The congregation in Joel 2 is NOT the same congregation in Acts 2, just as the people in Joel 2 were not the same people in Acts 2. So why do you keep vacillating?

You say that the people in Joel 2 were not the same people in Acts 2. However, Peter makes it plain that the fulfillment of a part of the prophecy found at Joel 2 happened to the people of Acts 2:

"For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams" (Acts 2:16-17).​

But according to you the congregation spoken of at Joel 2 is not the same congregation of Acts 2.

You obviously do not even understand Peter's words when he said "this that which was spoken by the prophet Joel."

According to you it was not what was spoken by the prophet Joel.

To make matters worse, you just ran and hid from these facts. It does no good to attempt to have an intelligent discussion on this subject with you because you want no part of such a discussion.

When your ideas cannot stand up to the light of the Scriptures you are somehow able to block those Scriptures from ever reaching your brain. That is what it means as having a closed mind.

 

[Cross Reference]

I wasn't addressing you in that post CR, but I don't put down the KJV, I tell it like it is. If those who read it can't get the functional equivalence in modern day terms then they should use a modern day translation.

You gave me Gal 2:20 (NIV) for what? Make a point.

I keep asking and you keep obfuscating ____ MAKE THE COMPARISON WITH THE KJV!!! Then give YOUR understanding to see why you and your sidekick, are all wet!!!!!! ------ maybe.

 

[StanJ]

It does no good to make a point with you because your mind is closed to the truth. I am still waiting for your response to my remarls about what you said here:

As you only seem to parrot and not actually make any points, I'd have to say you're the one who is CLOSED to truth.

You say that the people in Joel 2 were not the same people in Acts 2. However, Peter makes it plain that the fulfillment of a part of the prophecy found at Joel 2 happened to the people of Acts 2:

"For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams" (Acts 2:16-17).
​

But according to you the congregation spoken of at Joel 2 is not the same congregation of Acts 2.

That's correct, who God was addressing through His prophet Joel, was the Israel of then if you read v12 where he says; "even NOW".
What Peter quotes is Joel 2:28-32, not Joel 2:15-16, and that part of Joel's prophecy comes true in Acts 2, but it's NOT the same people unless you figure those people in Joel 2 lived until Acts 2?

You obviously do not even understand Peter's words when he said "this that which was spoken by the prophet Joel."
According to you it was not what was spoken by the prophet Joel.

Yes Jerry, "THIS", being the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as evidenced by the speaking in new tongues, NOT the people. Do you also believe in transubstantiation?

To make matters worse, you just ran and hid from these facts. It does no good to attempt to have an intelligent discussion on this subject with you because you want no part of such a discussion.
When your ideas cannot stand up to the light of the Scriptures you are somehow able to block those Scriptures from ever reaching your brain. That is what it means as having a closed mind.

How do you expect to have an intelligent conversation when you don't act or say anything intelligent?
Standing up to scriptural scrutiny and standing up to your scrutiny are two different things Jerry. The scriptures contain truth, your assertions do NOT, which is why I refute them WITH scripture.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That's correct, who God was addressing through His prophet Joel, was the Israel of then if you read v12 where he says; "even NOW".
What Peter quotes is Joel 2:28-32, not Joel 2:15-16, and that part of Joel's prophecy comes true in Acts 2, but it's NOT the same people unless you figure those people in Joel 2 lived until Acts 2?

The words at Joel 2 was a prophecy which is referring to things which will happen in the future. And the prophecy was fulfilled at Acts 2 so the people of Acts 2 were the ones spoken of at Joel 2. Not different people, as you seem to think.

From what you say I do not know if you know what a prophecy is. It was foretold that the events of Joel 2 would happen in the future and it did happen at Acts 2. So any mention of people speaking in tongues in the prophecy were the same people speaking in tongues at Acts 2.

Yes Jerry, "THIS", being the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as evidenced by the speaking in new tongues, NOT the people.

When Joel 2 foretells of people speaking in tongues then when that prophecy is fulfilled at Acts 2 the people speaking in tongues are the same people referred to in the prophecy.

How do you expect to have an intelligent conversation when you don't act or say anything intelligent?

I am the one who is speaking intelligently about the fulfillment of the prophecies of Joel 2 and your understanding of that is so limited that you cannot even understand these simple things.

Now listen to what Peter said at Pentecost and perhaps you will not remain clueless as to how prophecies work:

"Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days" (Acts 3:24).​

The prophecies found at Joel 2 were fulfilled on the day of Pentecost so the prophecies concerning people speaking in tongues were the people who actually spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost.

That completely destroys what you said here:

The congregation in Joel 2 is NOT the same congregation in Acts 2, just as the people in Joel 2 were not the same people in Acts 2.

 

[StanJ]

The words at Joel 2 was a prophecy which is referring to things which will happen in the future. And the prophecy was fulfilled at Acts 2 so the people of Acts 2 were the ones spoken of at Joel 2. Not different people, as you seem to think.

Prophesy can contain both current and future events, or do you not see that in all the OT prophecies? Joel 2 had both as I have shown.

From what you say I do not know if you know what a prophecy is. It was foretold that the events of Joel 2 would happen in the future and it did happen at Acts 2. So any mention of people speaking in tongues in the prophecy were the same people speaking in tongues at Acts 2.

Here, knock yourself out; http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prophecy

When Joel 2 foretells of people speaking in tongues then when that prophecy is fulfilled at Acts 2 the people speaking in tongues are the same people referred to in the prophecy.

No, because Joel didn't know who they would be, ONLY God did. Prophecy is based on uttering a message from God in faith, not about knowing who it applies to, and regardless, my point is it did NOT indicate that the people who would fulfill that prophecy would NOT be in the Body of Christ, just that they would be Jews, which they were.

I am the one who is speaking intelligently about the fulfillment of the prophecies of Joel 2 and your understanding of that is so limited that you cannot even understand these simple things.

You keep telling yourself that Jerry, while you condescendingly put down ALL others who disagree with you.

Now listen to what Peter said at Pentecost and perhaps you will not remain clueless as to how prophecies work:
"Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days" (Acts 3:24).
The prophecies found at Joel 2 were fulfilled on the day of Pentecost so the prophecies concerning people speaking in tongues were the people who actually spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost.

So now you see that Joel 2 was not talking about those particular people, but was talking about the EVENTS of those days as Peter said?
You're getting there.

 

[StanJ]

I keep asking and you keep obfuscating ____ MAKE THE COMPARISON WITH THE KJV!!! Then give YOUR understanding to see why you and your sidekick, are all wet!!!!!! ------ maybe.

Here ya go. Seeing as you're so lazy, that you can't do things for yourself, I am giving you a link to look at them side by side and MAKE a point.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal 2:20 &version=NIV;KJV

 

[Cross Reference]

Here ya go. Seeing as you're so lazy, that you can't do things for yourself, I am giving you a link to look at them side by side and MAKE a point.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal 2:20 &version=NIV;KJV

I asked for your understanding and only get more obfuscation to prove to at least myself, that all you care about is your intellectual prowess re the support of the modern Greek interpretation of adjectives you believe alters greatly the value of the KJV while completely ignoring the Holy Spirit insight that had its writers writing what they saw that reveals the richness of the KJV you wish to argue against, and do so without such insight. Let me say it this way: For understanding the KJV requires allegiance to God by Jesus Christ, to know Him, to search Him out in the way prescribed by Him. Sorry, no easy read+nothing allowed. I hope you get my drift in that because I find that those who do argue against the KJV have little of any desire to know Him aside from their claim of salvation.

OMT: I have more than enough modern translations and even a few old ones in my library to know how Gal 2:20 has been rendered and what lies behind the mindset of the modern, mostly RT, translators who have the continual need to reconcile the unreconcilable. Hence the many versions from them. All propped up by the coptic greek.

I asked you for your understanding from the KJV version you have been reluctant to give. Could it be your pride is showing because you see something for which you have no answer? I think that is a correct assumption. It is also a tragedy.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Prophesy can contain both current and future events, or do you not see that in all the OT prophecies? Joel 2 had both as I have shown.

Not the prophecy we have been discussing:

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit" (Joel 2:28-29).​

Where can you find current events in that prophecy, the same one we have been discussing.

And that prophecy was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, as witnessed by Peter's words here:

"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy" (Acts 2: 16-18).​

I said:

When Joel 2 foretells of people speaking in tongues then when that prophecy is fulfilled at Acts 2 the people speaking in tongues are the same people referred to in the prophecy.​

To this you said:

No, because Joel didn't know who they would be, ONLY God did. Prophecy is based on uttering a message from God in faith, not about knowing who it applies to, and regardless, my point is it did NOT indicate that the people who would fulfill that prophecy would NOT be in the Body of Christ, just that they would be Jews, which they were.

It doesn't matter if Joel knew or did not know who they would be. Peter said what was happening at Acts was the fulfillment of the verses which I quoted from Joel 2.

And that directly contradicts what you said here:

The congregation in Joel 2 is NOT the same congregation in Acts 2, just as the people in Joel 2 were not the same people in Acts 2. So why do you keep vacillating?

I see no evidence that you can understand the most simple things revealed in the Scriptures. If what they say contradict your preconceived ideas then you are unable to understand what they teach.

 

[StanJ]

I asked for your understanding and only get more obfuscation to prove to at least myself, that all you care about is your intellectual prowess re the support of the modern Greek interpretation of adjectives you believe alters greatly the value of the KJV while completely ignoring the Holy Spirit insight that had its writers writing what they saw that reveals the richness of the KJV you wish to argue against, and do so without such insight. Let me say it this way: For understanding the KJV requires allegiance to God by Jesus Christ, to know Him, to search Him out in the way prescribed by Him. Sorry, no easy read+nothing allowed. I hope you get my drift in that because I find that those who do argue against the KJV have little of any desire to know Him aside from their claim of salvation.

OMT: I have more than enough modern translations and even a few old ones in my library to know how Gal 2:20 has been rendered and what lies behind the mindset of the modern, mostly RT, translators who have the continual need to reconcile the unreconcilable. Hence the many versions from them. All propped up by the coptic greek.

I asked you for your understanding from the KJV version you have been reluctant to give. Could it be your pride is showing because you see something for which you have no answer? I think that is a correct assumption. It is also a tragedy.

You said; "MAKE THE COMPARISON WITH THE KJV", and I told you to do it yourself and MAKE a point which you seem afraid or loathe to do...and this just shows it.

That I won't play your game is the only thing that bugs you, but be that as it may, either MAKE a point or admit your deceitfulness.

 

[StanJ]

Not the prophecy we have been discussing

Really? What prophecy are we discussing?

Where can you find current events in that prophecy, the same one we have been discussing.

I suggest you read ALL of Joel 2 and answer yourself.

And that prophecy was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost

What prophecy?

It doesn't matter if Joel knew or did not know who they would be. Peter said what was happening at Acts was the fulfillment of the verses which I quoted from Joel 2.

So if we ARE talking about Joel 2, why do you continue to equivocate?

I see no evidence that you can understand the most simple things revealed in the Scriptures. If what they say contradict your preconceived ideas then you are unable to understand what they teach.

The evidence is that you refuse to answer direct questions and prevaricate constantly about what is being discussed.
I see nothing in God's written Word, that contradicts itself, but plenty in your posts that contradict God's written word, so please deal with YOUR assertions and my responses to them.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Really? What prophecy are we discussing?

I quoted it in my last post and you cannot even understand which prophecy I am referring to. Here it is again:

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit" (Joel 2:28-29).​

If you can't figure this out and you obviously can't, I am through wasting my time with you.

I might as well be talking to the wall.

Adios, my friend.

 

[Cross Reference]

You said; "MAKE THE COMPARISON WITH THE KJV", and I told you to do it yourself and MAKE a point which you seem afraid or loathe to do...and this just shows it.

That I won't play you game is the only thing that bugs you but be that as it may, either MAKE a point or admit your deceitfulness.

Good. You have nothing to offer anyway aside from offering up what someone else has to say. That is what this all about from me.

 

[StanJ]

I quoted it in my last post and you cannot even understand which prophecy I am referring to. Here it is again:

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit" (Joel 2:28-29).
​

If you can't figure this out and you obviously can't, I am through wasting my time with you.

So you think this section of verses is different from or a different prophecy than the rest of Joel 2?

Making you accountable to be clear and succinct is not something I should need to do with ingenuous people.

It does sound like you practise all this crap in front of a wall.