What humans thought/think God thinks or feels is called 'opinion', not truth. The difference being that human opinion is subject to error, while the truth is simply 'what is'.
You conception of God and Christ is completely dependent upon the fact that you were introduced to these through the NT stories and comments. But the stories and comments are only a means of conveying an ideal. And if that ideal is true, then it will be true regardless of the words, stories, comments, or whatever other means we use to convey that truth to one another. Because the truth is 'what is'. It's written into the fabric of existence.
PureX said:
What do you think "through me" means in this quote? And how do you support your interpretation of that phrase?
There is the story, and there is the lesson (revelation) of the story. The story of Jesus of Nazareth is a mythical story, meaning that it is intended to convey a revelation. As a means to that end, 'Jesus' becomes the Christ. He becomes a human manifestation of God's love, and forgiveness, and kindness, and generosity, and example for all mankind. Jesus is the embodiment of the revelation. Of the lesson being conveyed.
That's the claim of those ancient Jews who were expecting their Messiah to come wielding a mighty sword to vanquish all their oppressors, but got a Messiah that spoke of love and forgiveness and of turning the other cheek, instead. And who was killed by their oppressors instead of vanquishing them. They NEEDED to believe in all that mystical symbolism to keep their Messiah alive and powerful. But I am not an ancient Jew. I am not despondent over their lost Messiah. So I don't need to pretend all that mystical symbolism is real. I just need to be healed and saved from myself. As Jesus said I would be, if I would allow God's love within me, to direct me in this life. And that is a truth that I have found to be evidenced by my experience of reality. That's the revelation I needed. And that's the revelation I have received. The rest is just ancient religiosity, to me.
PureX said:
He does that.
I'm separating it from the "Jesus religion". I'm not saying Jesus is a myth, I'm saying that the story of Jesus that we read in the Bible is a mythical story. Meaning that it is intended to convey an ideal/revelation to those who read it. Jesus was not a Jewish evangelist. Jews don't even believe in evangelism. He was a Jew proposing a new way of understanding their relationship to God and each other, to other Jews. And it was a new way of understanding that was so profound and radical that it transcended Judaism, in fact. And could thereby be adopted by people of any religion, or non-religion.
myth /miTH/ noun noun: myth; plural noun: myths 1. a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events. synonyms: folk tale, folk story, legend, tale, story, fable, saga, mythos, lore, folklore, mythology "ancient Greek myths" •traditional stories or legends collectively. "the heroes of Greek myth" 2. a widely held but false belief or idea. "he wants to dispel the myth that sea kayaking is too risky or too strenuous" |
He does that.
I'm separating it from the "Jesus religion". I'm not saying Jesus is a myth, I'm saying that the story of Jesus that we read in the Bible is a mythical story. Meaning that it is intended to convey an ideal/revelation to those who read it. Jesus was not a Jewish evangelist. Jews don't even believe in evangelism. He was a Jew proposing a new way of understanding their relationship to God and each other, to other Jews. And it was a new way of understanding that was so profound and radical that it transcended Judaism, in fact. And could thereby be adopted by people of any religion, or non-religion.
Just because you can't separate the ideal from the Judaic religiosity from which it sprung doesn't mean that no one else, can.
I can, and I do.
Actually, that's exactly what they are. Most myths contain accurate information that's been exaggerated and embellished to better serve their intent; which is to convey an ideal, lesson, or revelation of some kind. And that's exactly what the story of Jesus of Nazareth is, and is intended to do.
We don't know that Jesus actually existed. But that doesn't matter because whatever and whoever Jesus was, he is NOW the embodiment of an ideal. He is NOW the central character in a religious myth. That is his proper "context" from our perspective.
You're not reading the story as a story. And you're insisting that I must not do so, either. But it IS a story, now. That's ALL IT IS, NOW. Because whatever reality there may once have been to it is now lost to us. All we have is the story, and the lessons/revelations that the story conveys to us.
The ideal as I see it is simple, and is universal: that God's love acting in us and through us to others, can and will heal us and save us from ourselves. I believe it because I tried it, and found that it's true. And I have seen many others try it and they also have found that it's true. And I have also seen that as more and more people follow this prescription, they make each other's lives better.
You should do as you think appropriate, and I am sure that you will. But I believe that you will discover the Christ ideal of living through love to produce better results for you and for everyone in your life, over all.
Many still think like this, today. Many professing Christians right here on TOL still believe in an "eye for an eye", and a "me first" mentality. But slowly, over a long time span, we humans do seem to be becoming kinder toward each other. Though sadly, here in the U.S. present, we have been falling back into moral Darwinism, again.
That simply is not true, and I have my own life experiences to prove it to me. But whatever you need to prove whatever you believe, to yourself, is your own concern. As it should be.
They are the language and ideological framework I've been given, in this culture, so they are the language and ideological framework I use. I simply disregard the ancient Judaic religious associations because I am not an ancient Jew. Nor even a modern one.
I don't really care. I am not searching for the "truth" beyond a truth that 'works' in my life. If believing in feats of magic worked in my life, I would choose to do so regardless of whether it aligned with some satanists dogma, or some scientist's experiments. The truth is what works in my experience of reality. Not what someone else claims it is, to them.
I don't dismiss orthodoxy because I think it's a fantasy for ignorants. I dismiss it because it doesn't 'work' as truth in my modern experience of reality. I fully understand that the people who hold to it are doing so because doing so 'works' for them in some way. But it doesn't work for me, nor, apparently for increasing numbers of my fellow humans.
:nono: "Don't steal" means embezzling as well." Our bodies are not our own, we are not our own, we were bought with a price. Thou shalt not murder" (kill for selfish reasons). These cover most of the concerns with few exceptions. There are other scriptures that speak to these other issues.
People who don't read their bibles, don't know what it says. That's true.
Generally, most of the time, words mean something or they wouldn't be said and handed down. Only those who revere the words of God would pay this much attention.
In your mind they do. But not in everyone else's. "Thou shalt not kill" could mean thou shalt not kill anything. Or it could mean though shalt not kill some things. Or it could mean thou shalt not kill indiscriminately. Or it could mean thou shalt not kill unjustly. And who decides what is just or unjust killing? Who decides what is indiscriminate killing? The answer is that we do. Just as we decide if fetuses are included in that which we shall not kill.
And the people who do read it don't always agree on what it means.
And yet nearly every word in the dictionary has multiple meanings. And even more-so when they have been translated from other languages.
God didn't write any words. That, too, is a presumptive interpretation of the text, by you, that not everyone shares.