the apocalypse

whitestone

Well-known member
victorinus is important when you add it to what eusebius wrote in his church history
eusebius mentions most of the seven churches of the apocalypse but never acknowledges the connection to the apocalypse
eusebius doesn't mention antipas but seems to mention all the other martyrs
eusebius also mention ancient copies of the apocalypse referred to by irenaeus

all this suggests more than one version of the apocalypse

I agree Irenaeus mentions this in AH 5.30.1 http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103530.htm in which he is arguing that there were approved copies and others which were not. In the preface of A.H. chapter 2 Irenaeus also mentions "SOME OF THE COMMENTARIES" that were written by the "disciples of Valentinus" so it implies there were several other copies and also "commentaries" by around ad170-180 http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103100.htm

In my opinion this fragment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_115 is from ONE OF THE COMMENTARIES OF HIS DISCIPLES,,,,I say this because Irenaeus also states that Valentinus also changed the "iota and eta" becouse it was the first two letters of Christ name.

also I agree with the opinion of victorinus being important in this because both he and Irenaeus are from the same area and time-frame (Lyons France to lower Germany) so he was probably well antiquated with this.
 

whitestone

Well-known member
I agree Irenaeus mentions this in AH 5.30.1 http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103530.htm in which he is arguing that there were approved copies and others which were not. In the preface of A.H. chapter 2 Irenaeus also mentions "SOME OF THE COMMENTARIES" that were written by the "disciples of Valentinus" so it implies there were several other copies and also "commentaries" by around ad170-180 http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103100.htm

In my opinion this fragment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_115 is from ONE OF THE COMMENTARIES OF HIS DISCIPLES,,,,I say this because Irenaeus also states that Valentinus also changed the "iota and eta" becouse it was the first two letters of Christ name.

also I agree with the opinion of victorinus being important in this because both he and Irenaeus are from the same area and time-frame (Lyons France to lower Germany) so he was probably well antiquated with this.


something I also should add to this is that considering the misspelling of TITAN is (intentional) on Irenaeus part as TIETAN in that he is resolving through a language barrier.

Irenaeus was accustomed to speak "keltae"(Celt) but he also understood that before the Revelation was written in the common Greek there also was Attic(and others) one was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greek and also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_B and linearA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A ,,,,,

so in the statement Irenaeus made about "the Greek mode of calculation" he also intentionally used these older forms of mathematics when he resolved this.

This to me makes good sense because Patmos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patmos is in the Islands just below "ICARIA and SAMOS"(one of the five dots/islands) so the dialect of Greek spoken on Patmos would be a little different http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greek#/media/File:Homeric_Greece.svg (notice Irenaeus calls it ancient) speaking of the "Greek mode of calculation",,,
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
something I also should add to this is that considering the misspelling of TITAN is (intentional) on Irenaeus part as TIETAN in that he is resolving through a language barrier.

Irenaeus was accustomed to speak "keltae"(Celt) but he also understood that before the Revelation was written in the common Greek

whoa!

a misspelling by irenaeus?
you can't be looking at an original document
it must be a copy of a translation at best
how can you blame him for the misspelling?

and

the apocalypse was originally written in hebrew and later translated into greek
 

whitestone

Well-known member
whoa!

a misspelling by irenaeus?
you can't be looking at an original document
it must be a copy of a translation at best
how can you blame him for the misspelling?

and

the apocalypse was originally written in hebrew and later translated into greek


lol,he did not misspell it,,it is the "old spelling of the word",,,TEITAN see ch.3 http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103530.htm ,,,,he was using the form of Greek in the links in my former post,,,he wrote it that way on purpose.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
the jerome biblical commentary

the jerome biblical commentary

the jerome biblical commentary

now that I have this book
I can comment on a catholic interpretation of the apocalypse
but
I don't believe it is considered the official catholic interpretation
and
I don't believe it must be accepted by catholics
and
I don't agree with it

it is a big book
1500 pages
has commentary on both the old and the new testament
very interesting
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
so what are you working on?

the abomination of desolation

is that in the apocalypse?

don't think so but it may help identify the beasts

of daniel?

yes and it will help identify the beasts of the apocalypse

nearly everyone agrees about the beasts of daniel

they could be wrong

based on what?

the abomination of desolation
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
is the time near?

it is time to update the apocalypse

before they delete it?

that is always a concern of mine

do you have anything new?

new to me

what is it?

mostly daniel stuff

why daniel?

daniel is the key to understanding the apocalypse

what about history?

daniel is history
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
is the time near?

...

do you have anything new?

LORD HAVE MERCY!

My Brother...

The Time is Now...

It has always been Now...

Since the Empty Tomb

Of our Lord...

From the Virgin's Womb...

The Church is in decline...

The Church Herself...

Few are holding Her now...

Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven...

The rest is vanity...

All is vanity...

There is nothing new...

Under the sun...

God bless you in the quest of your search...

I will not be writing here much now...

Farewell...

Arsenios
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
LORD HAVE MERCY!

My Brother...

The Time is Now...

It has always been Now...

Since the Empty Tomb

Of our Lord...

From the Virgin's Womb...

The Church is in decline...

The Church Herself...

Few are holding Her now...

Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven...

The rest is vanity...

All is vanity...

There is nothing new...

Under the sun...

God bless you in the quest of your search...

I will not be writing here much now...

Farewell...

Arsenios

good-bye arsenios. what's going on ? tell me some secrets -
 

Caino

BANNED
Banned
what already happened?

give us some examples


"The war in heaven" already happened, Michael (aka Jesus) and his angels already defeated the dragon and his angels while Michael was incarnate on earth.

But much of revelation is a hacked up mess, edited by opocolyptic writers.

The original gospel of Love, tolerance and forgiveness will eventually be preached again and subdue the world, not a violent God smashing up nations.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
"The war in heaven" already happened, Michael (aka Jesus) and his angels already defeated the dragon and his angels while Michael was incarnate on earth.

But much of revelation is a hacked up mess, edited by opocolyptic writers.

The original gospel of Love, tolerance and forgiveness will eventually be preached again and subdue the world, not a violent God smashing up nations.


What is evidence or who are authors who find the Rev to be rewritten?

I don't know about general tolerance in Jesus' Gospel; there are some very pointed statements. However, one thing is true--the final day of judgement is not a set of battles on earth. There is no way that would come out fair, or judge individuals as the final judgement will. Rom 2 is surprising to Judaism because all nations (individuals in them) get treated equally. All judgement is through Christ.

2 Peter 3 also has no Judaic-favor battles with nations. It is the longest complete statement about the day of judgement.

Material in Mt 24 etc about Judea was about the catastrophe of the destruction of Israel in 66-70.
 

Caino

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Banned
What is evidence or who are authors who find the Rev to be rewritten?

I don't know about general tolerance in Jesus' Gospel; there are some very pointed statements. However, one thing is true--the final day of judgement is not a set of battles on earth. There is no way that would come out fair, or judge individuals as the final judgement will. Rom 2 is surprising to Judaism because all nations (individuals in them) get treated equally. All judgement is through Christ.

2 Peter 3 also has no Judaic-favor battles with nations. It is the longest complete statement about the day of judgement.

Material in Mt 24 etc about Judea was about the catastrophe of the destruction of Israel in 66-70.

I agree with Martin Luthers early opinion on Revelation "neither apostolic nor prophetic" and "Christ is not found in it." He would later have a change of heart, but I'm not sure that he ever figured out what revelation revealed.

In my theology the Urantia Book reveals what the BOR originally revealed but did not survive intact. Some material was removed, other material added by opocolyptic writers.

A book of revelation should at least reveal something.
 

achduke

Active member
"The war in heaven" already happened, Michael (aka Jesus) and his angels already defeated the dragon and his angels while Michael was incarnate on earth.

But much of revelation is a hacked up mess, edited by opocolyptic writers.

The original gospel of Love, tolerance and forgiveness will eventually be preached again and subdue the world, not a violent God smashing up nations.

Michael is an angel. How can Christ be made lower then the angels if he is an angel?

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
I agree with Martin Luthers early opinion on Revelation "neither apostolic nor prophetic" and "Christ is not found in it." He would later have a change of heart, but I'm not sure that he ever figured out what revelation revealed.

In my theology the Urantia Book reveals what the BOR originally revealed but did not survive intact. Some material was removed, other material added by opocolyptic writers.

A book of revelation should at least reveal something.


Let me give you the historical approach. (This is not going to be historical progression through the centuries).
1, the 7 churches were the Christians in Judea who needed to escape from Judea in the late 60s; many went to be near the best known apostles, in Little Asia (modern western Turkey).
2, the Rev is a revelation of CHRIST, as it says. Most people read that and think it was saying of final events. It is revealing that Christ is Lord of history even when the worst of persecution happens.
3, the beast is Rome, but riding on the beast is something even more insidious for the 1st century believer: Jerusalem/Judaism/Israel. Many Roman cities had leaders who were Jewish who thrived there, helped the city like Daniel (seek the prosperity of the city where I take you), and believed that the messianic age was that of taking the torah to the nations.
4, the harlot harms the believers. But eventually the beast turns on the harlot and ruins her. That's the destruction of Jerusalem.
5, with the harlot out of the way (stoned), Christ and the bride can marry. However, even if John wrote this in the late 60s (during the DofJ) or right after, Paul had already said the marriage had taken place. Perhaps now, John meant, the bride can thrive on earth, without the harrassment of Judaism which was profoundly minimized. But the city to which Christ is married never quite lands on earth, either in John's visions or in Paul (Gal 4, or Heb 12). It is hovering above.
6, at the end of time all the world will be judged and the result will be life in the NHNE or destruction.

The Rev is not a prediction of world events. It is not a 'safe' Nostradamus scroll. It is not prognostication. It is a pastoral vision to tell believers that Christ will be victor over all things thrown at the believers. Those would be believers who had lost children, parents, spouses, friends, to Judaism or Rome.

The delay of the final judgement of God was a question as large as the inclusion of the Gentiles. Mt 24 etc indicates it would happen right after the awful destruction of Jerusalem. But it also allows a delay, as does Mark and Peter. Luke (with Paul) does not. Paul is always referring to a very short time frame and return of Christ. But as you know, 2 Peter 3 is written specifically to deal with the objection of the delay of the coming (surely that cannot be the 1st coming...). The delay was the greatest question for the remaining apostles after the DofJ, but as Lattourrette shows, there is nothing conclusive other than 2 Peter 3. We are simply in a delayed return period.
 

Caino

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Banned
Let me give you the historical approach. (This is not going to be historical progression through the centuries).
1, the 7 churches were the Christians in Judea who needed to escape from Judea in the late 60s; many went to be near the best known apostles, in Little Asia (modern western Turkey).
2, the Rev is a revelation of CHRIST, as it says. Most people read that and think it was saying of final events. It is revealing that Christ is Lord of history even when the worst of persecution happens.
3, the beast is Rome, but riding on the beast is something even more insidious for the 1st century believer: Jerusalem/Judaism/Israel. Many Roman cities had leaders who were Jewish who thrived there, helped the city like Daniel (seek the prosperity of the city where I take you), and believed that the messianic age was that of taking the torah to the nations.
4, the harlot harms the believers. But eventually the beast turns on the harlot and ruins her. That's the destruction of Jerusalem.
5, with the harlot out of the way (stoned), Christ and the bride can marry. However, even if John wrote this in the late 60s (during the DofJ) or right after, Paul had already said the marriage had taken place. Perhaps now, John meant, the bride can thrive on earth, without the harrassment of Judaism which was profoundly minimized. But the city to which Christ is married never quite lands on earth, either in John's visions or in Paul (Gal 4, or Heb 12). It is hovering above.
6, at the end of time all the world will be judged and the result will be life in the NHNE or destruction.

The Rev is not a prediction of world events. It is not a 'safe' Nostradamus scroll. It is not prognostication. It is a pastoral vision to tell believers that Christ will be victor over all things thrown at the believers. Those would be believers who had lost children, parents, spouses, friends, to Judaism or Rome.

The delay of the final judgement of God was a question as large as the inclusion of the Gentiles. Mt 24 etc indicates it would happen right after the awful destruction of Jerusalem. But it also allows a delay, as does Mark and Peter. Luke (with Paul) does not. Paul is always referring to a very short time frame and return of Christ. But as you know, 2 Peter 3 is written specifically to deal with the objection of the delay of the coming (surely that cannot be the 1st coming...). The delay was the greatest question for the remaining apostles after the DofJ, but as Lattourrette shows, there is nothing conclusive other than 2 Peter 3. We are simply in a delayed return period.

That's one school of speculation.

The kingdom established by Jesus and the original gospel that inaugurated it, was spiritual. It consisted of those who by faith realized the Fatherhood of God of ALL mankind, and the resulting brotherhood of believers in this Kingdom. [Jesus' audience had thought of God as a national God, now Jesus revealed that he is a personal God, even a loving father to each individual.]

For now The Kingdom of Heaven ideal embodied in Jesus' teachings has largly failed as his followers were unable to remain true to his teachings.

The erroneous ideas of a Jewish Messiah, a kind of preist, prophet, King, taking up David's corrupt political seat and ruling the world from material Israel, has contaminated the expectations of the return (visit) of Christ. The re-Sanhedrin, sect divided Christian Church, became a substitute for the spiritual brotherhood of Jesus.

The kingdom was always to be spiritual, the king would be God in the heart of the believer. The world will radically change but not all at once in one cataclysmic event. As we return to the original gospel it will eventually subdue the heart, the neighborhood, the nations, the world.

The delay is the contamination of the original gospel OF Jesus that became a gospel ABOUT Jesus. But that was to be expected, a gallon cannot fit into a quart. There will be many ages to come, thousands, even tens of thousands of years before the world completed its attitude adjustment and settled into the age of light and life.

From the vantage point of that future age, looking back retrospectively, the prophets will then be understood:​


The Mountain of the Lord​

…And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war. Come, house of Jacob, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.​

This world is not the home of the Son, we will go to where he is.
 
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chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
still reading isaac newton
and
you can search it here

this is an interesting comment by him

"All which is as much as to say, that these Prophecies of Daniel and John should not be understood till the time of the end: but then some should prophesy out of them in an afflicted and mournful state for a long time, and that but darkly, so as to convert but few. But in the very end, the Prophecy should be so far interpreted as to convince many."
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
still reading isaac newton
and
you can search it here

this is another interesting comment by him

"Amongst the Interpreters of the last age there is scarce one of note who hath not made some discovery worth knowing; and thence I seem to gather that God is about opening these mysteries. The success of others put me upon considering it; and if I have done any thing which may be useful to following writers, I have my design. "
 

Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
still reading isaac newton
and
you can search it here

this is another interesting comment by him

"Amongst the Interpreters of the last age there is scarce one of note who hath not made some discovery worth knowing; and thence I seem to gather that God is about opening these mysteries. The success of others put me upon considering it; and if I have done any thing which may be useful to following writers, I have my design. "

That is a terrific saying....of course the 16/17th centuries were centuries of revelation.
 
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