Sodomy vs. Shellfish

[heir]

Hi DXpose,

You make it sound as if the homosexual has no hope (at least that’s how you come across). The truth is that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23 KJV). The scripture hath concluded all under sin (Romans 5:12 KJV, Galatians 3:22 KJV). The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23 KJV) and 2000 years ago the Lord Jesus Christ became sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV), took the payoff in our stead (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) even for the “homo”!

The Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, was buried and rose again on the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV). He was delivered for our offences and raised again for our justification (Romans 4:25 KJV). While we were without strength Christ died for the ungodly (Romans 5:6 KJV). When we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son (Romans 5:10 KJV).

As an ambassador for Christ, where is the good news (even for the “homo”) that sin is not their problem right now (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV), but their UNBELIEF is? Just what must they (or anyone else for that matter) do to be saved?

 

[Butterfly]

Hi DXpose,

You make it sound as if the homosexual has no hope (at least that’s how you come across). The truth is that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23 KJV). The scripture hath concluded all under sin (Romans 5:12 KJV, Galatians 3:22 KJV). The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23 KJV) and 2000 years ago the Lord Jesus Christ became sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV), took the payoff in our stead (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) even for the “homo”!

The Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, was buried and rose again on the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV). He was delivered for our offences and raised again for our justification (Romans 4:25 KJV). While we were without strength Christ died for the ungodly (Romans 5:6 KJV). When we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son (Romans 5:10 KJV).

As an ambassador for Christ, where is the good news (even for the “homo”) that sin is not their problem right now (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV), but their UNBELIEF is? Just what must they (or anyone else for that matter) do to be saved?

AMEN!

One must also not overlook, that the same verse which condemns the sinful act of homosexuality, also condemns people who lie, steal, get drunk, cheated, manipulated, etc. It groups them ALL in the same category, sins being committed by a sinner.

So whether one is a homosexual, or if one lied, they are both guilty of sin and are in need of a Savior. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 is talking about ALL of us because there is nobody here that has not committed one or more of the sins listed there. Everyone has lied, everyone has stolen.

 

[DXPose]

Hi DXpose,

You make it sound as if the homosexual has no hope (at least that’s how you come across). The truth is that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23 KJV). The scripture hath concluded all under sin (Romans 5:12 KJV, Galatians 3:22 KJV). The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23 KJV) and 2000 years ago the Lord Jesus Christ became sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV), took the payoff in our stead (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) even for the “homo”!

The Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, was buried and rose again on the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV). He was delivered for our offences and raised again for our justification (Romans 4:25 KJV). While we were without strength Christ died for the ungodly (Romans 5:6 KJV). When we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son (Romans 5:10 KJV).

As an ambassador for Christ, where is the good news (even for the “homo”) that sin is not their problem right now (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV), but their UNBELIEF is? Just what must they (or anyone else for that matter) do to be saved?

According to Romans 1:24-32, homosexuality in itself, is a judgment from God.

Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Of course, not all hope is lost. If a homosexual truly humbles himself and puts his faith in Jesus Christ, certainly he can be saved.

The point of this post was to address the absurdity of the shellfish argument so people could understand the difference between moral laws which never change vs. dietary laws which were given only to the nation of Israel for symbolic reasons.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Romans 1
29: Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30: Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31: Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Keep going...

Romans 2
1: Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2: But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

 

[bybee]

Good morning Dear boy,

Good morning Dear boy,

Romans 1
29: Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30: Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31: Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Keep going...

Romans 2
1: Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2: But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

I'm reading a book "Romans" A Shorter Commentary by C.E.B. Cranfield. I'm sure it must have been part of a seminary curriculum. It takes every sentence(often every word) back to foundation meaning/s and explains context. He suggests that when Paul castigates the Romans as guilty of such heinous behavior, he was speaking more to the gentiles who did not have the benefit of Old Testament Studies, but, certainly not excluding the Jewish-Christians who were also members of that congregation.
I'm working my way through this study guide so cannot yet draw any conclusions. Obviously, Romans is one of, if not the most important of Paul's Epistles and requires a good deal of thoughtful, prayerful study. When my head get's too full of thought I go outside and work in the yard! peace, bybee

 

[Poly]

Why do you spend so much time and energy discussing a topic that you say disgusts you?

Why do you spend so much time on here discussing theological topics and issues that you claim disgusts you, Kettle?

:wazzup:

 

[Brother Vinny]

. . .breaching the moral law was punishable by death (Lev. 20).

I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, and you may want to clarify after I ask the following question:

Does this mean that we are morally obligated to observe the seventh-day Sabbath (Exodus 31:15)?

 

[heir]

According to Romans 1:24-32, homosexuality in itself, is a judgment from God.

Vile affections stem from idolatry. Romans 1:20-28 KJV For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

“Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts," "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections". This is as if to say, “Fine. You know who I am and yet, this is what you want. Then I’m turning you over to your ways. Have at it.”.

Read Exodus 32! Long story short: Moses went up to the mountain to commune with God and was gone too long and the people spoke to Aaron and wanted him to “make us gods” to worship. They changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man (golden calf) and then what did they do on the morrow? They rose up to play. Sounds a lot like what we see above in Romans.

Exodus 32:6 KJV And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.

Of course, not all hope is lost.

Their hope is not in perfecting their flesh as if righteousness come by the law.

If a homosexual truly humbles himself and puts his faith in Jesus Christ, certainly he can be saved.

Hmmm. What does that mean? Perhaps in your response to what I previously posed I can get a better understanding as to what you are saying. Here is what I asked you:

As an ambassador for Christ, where is the good news (even for the “homo”) that sin is not their problem right now (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV), but their UNBELIEF is? Just what must they (or anyone else for that matter) do to be saved?

The point of this post was to address the absurdity of the shellfish argument so people could understand the difference between moral laws which never change vs. dietary laws which were given only to the nation of Israel for symbolic reasons.

And yet at the end of your OP you left the homosexual with no hope and on their way to “eternal damnation” because of the works of the flesh.

Eating shellfish is a rather harmless act with no moral implications, whereas history is replete with accounts of homosexuality as a deviant, destructive and anti-societal behavior resulting in the end of a culture and eternal damnation for those who practice it.

Do homosexuals who die today go to hell because of what they do?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Vile affections stem from idolatry.

:BRAVO:

Excellent post, heir. Yes, the root of all sexual perversion is idolatry, vain imaginations of the mind.

 

[Uberpod1]

Isn't it true that the God who serves a punishment of everlasting torture for disobedience in regard to a matter of taste must clearly be seen as an entity more evil than Hitler?

 

[lightbringer]

:rotfl: I knew Hitler would be brought up sooner or later...we almost made it to page three.

Never ceases to amaze me. :rotfl:

oops! page three already!

 

[DXPose]

I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, and you may want to clarify after I ask the following question:

Does this mean that we are morally obligated to observe the seventh-day Sabbath (Exodus 31:15)?

Absolutely not. Observing the Sabbath was a ceremonial law given to the Jews who were under the Law. Working on the Sabbath is not immoral or evil, it was a law given for a different dispensation. In the age of grace, Gentiles are not bound by the Law and no amount of good works will save us, only faith. That being said, God's moral Law is unchanging and still requires righteous justice. Murder, kidnapping, adultery and other sexual sins (ie: homosexuality, bestiality, pedophilia, rape, ect.) are still deserving of death according to God.

Does that clear things up a bit?

 

[Persephone66]

Isn't it true that the God who serves a punishment of everlasting torture for disobedience in regard to a matter of taste must clearly be seen as an entity more evil than Hitler?

That's sounds pretty accurate to me. But they really don't like it when you compare them or their god to Hitler.

 

[heir]

Vile affections stem from idolatry. Romans 1:20-28 KJV For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

“Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts," "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections". This is as if to say, “Fine. You know who I am and yet, this is what you want. Then I’m turning you over to your ways. Have at it.”.

Read Exodus 32! Long story short: Moses went up to the mountain to commune with God and was gone too long and the people spoke to Aaron and wanted him to “make us gods” to worship. They changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man (golden calf) and then what did they do on the morrow? They rose up to play. Sounds a lot like what we see above in Romans.

Exodus 32:6 KJV And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.

Their hope is not in perfecting their flesh as if righteousness come by the law. Hmmm. What does that mean? Perhaps in your response to what I previously posed I can get a better understanding as to what you are saying. Here is what I asked you:

As an ambassador for Christ, where is the good news (even for the “homo”) that sin is not their problem right now (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV), but their UNBELIEF is? Just what must they (or anyone else for that matter) do to be saved?

And yet at the end of your OP you left the homosexual with no hope and on their way to “eternal damnation” because of the works of the flesh. Do homosexuals who die today go to hell because of what they do?

Still waiting for a reply, DX.

 

[jjkky]

DXPose - are you for real? I'm curious, when did the bible start categorizing abominations to the Lord? If Leviticus is the Word of God, then we don't have the luxury to decide which is less abominable. So based on your logic, we can choose which sin is ok and which is not and if that is the case, you have no right to condemn anyone for their actions because a more enlightened person may decide that homosexuality is the lessor sin. Jess, people, throw away your childish toys and bigotry and do some reading.

 

[Arthur Brain]

DXPose - are you for real? I'm curious, when did the bible start categorizing abominations to the Lord? If Leviticus is the Word of God, then we don't have the luxury to decide which is less abominable. So based on your logic, we can choose which sin is ok and which is not and if that is the case, you have no right to condemn anyone for their actions because a more enlightened person may decide that homosexuality is the lessor sin. Jess, people, throw away your childish toys and bigotry and do some reading.

Yes, but homosexuality is more "icky" than eating shellfish so it's all justified.

 

[jjkky]

Yes, but homosexuality is more "icky" than eating shellfish so it's all justified.

ROFLMAO! Way too funny!

 

[kuronin]

Eating shellfish is a rather harmless act with no moral implications, whereas history is replete with accounts of homosexuality as a deviant, destructive and anti-societal behavior resulting in the end of a culture and eternal damnation for those who practice it.

By "history", do you mean the bible?

 

[jjkky]

Homosexuality is very normal behavior. It has been studied and proven that over 1500 specials within the animal kingdom practice homosexuality. This frequent observation of homosexual behavior in animals has been seen as an argument for the acceptance of homosexuality in humans as natural, however, this conclusion is controversial due to opposition to the LGBT social movements and many experts in the field are reluctant to extrapolate from animals to humans. Some consider it also counters the 'peccatum contra naturam' ('sin against nature') — after Thomas Aquinas. Whether this has logical or ethical implications is also a source of debate, with some arguing that it is illogical to use animal behavior to justify what is or is not moral. Morality is a human trait and has just as many arguments as to what or who defines morality. Morality is not exclusive to biblical teachings, contrary to Christian beliefs. The problem I see with Christian morality stems from idolatry of the Bible instead of the glorious gifts of God's love for ALL His children. Christians have made God into their image instead of us being made in His image.

Regardless of these arguments, homosexuality is natural. It is only unnatural to those who lack understanding of one of God's most wonderful gifts to express one's love for another. I can't help but wonder if the reason Christians from the medieval period (Thomas Aquinas) and today are against it because if reproduction isn't possible, then the church can't grow which is essential for religious domination.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Homosexuality is very normal behavior. It has been studied and proven that over 1500 specials within the animal kingdom practice homosexuality. This frequent observation of homosexual behavior in animals has been seen as an argument for the acceptance of homosexuality in humans as natural, however, this conclusion is controversial due to opposition to the LGBT social movements and many experts in the field are reluctant to extrapolate from animals to humans. Some consider it also counters the 'peccatum contra naturam' ('sin against nature') — after Thomas Aquinas. Whether this has logical or ethical implications is also a source of debate, with some arguing that it is illogical to use animal behavior to justify what is or is not moral. Morality is a human trait and has just as many arguments as to what or who defines morality. Morality is not exclusive to biblical teachings, contrary to Christian beliefs. The problem I see with Christian morality stems from idolatry of the Bible instead of the glorious gifts of God's love for ALL His children. Christians have made God into their image instead of us being made in His image.

Regardless of these arguments, homosexuality is natural. It is only unnatural to those who lack understanding of one of God's most wonderful gifts to express one's love for another. I can't help but wonder if the reason Christians from the medieval period (Thomas Aquinas) and today are against it because if reproduction isn't possible, then the church can't grow which is essential for religious domination.

By your logic, murdering your own children is natural.
Behavior: Animals That Kill Their Young

Christians should always be against homosexual acts because God said those acts are an abomination.