Should homosexuals be given the death penalty?

[PlastikBuddha]

See here is the problem though, it is not morally repugnant in the least. Think of it this way:

You have some children, and in your back yard are some poisonous berries. You know if your children EAT those berries they will get sick and that they could die. So you warn them to NOT eat the berries because you know what is best for them. They might think they'd like to try the berries, and they might even think you were being mean and unreasonable.

Who knows better in that situation, you or them?

This is what we are discussing with God and homosexuality.

Only one problem: killing people in judgement goes beyond mean and unreasonable- it goes beyond what what I would think of as a tutelage and guidance also. You may say that one execution may serve as an example to others and result in a net gain. That is human thinking, though. Isn't God a personal God, concerned with each individual? Killing Queer A may result in the "salvation" of Queers B through Z but it's still kind of a downer for Queer A.
I hear a lot here about how we shouldn't try to be nicer than God. I don't believe it would be possible to be nicer than God, I have to say I could be nicer than this without even trying.

As for the idea of God being a parent and we the children- which is it? Are we children in need of LOVING guidance who don't always know what is best for us or are we spiritual adults capable of making our decisions and qualified to make a clear-headed and informed choice about our lives and our after-lives? If we are children then execution is a monstrous perversion of justice in the name of punishment and correction. If we are adults than we have the perogative of living in the manner that we ourselves decide is moral and correct.

My question stands. What would you do when confronted with what seems like a moral contradiction in your God? We must use our own reason and logic to decide if something is or isn't from God, so what would you do if you were left with an Abraham's dilemma of your own? Would you forge ahead unquestioningly or would you pause and think that maybe this message isn't from on high after all?

 

[Lighthouse]

Only one problem: killing people in judgement goes beyond mean and unreasonable- it goes beyond what what I would think of as a tutelage and guidance also. You may say that one execution may serve as an example to others and result in a net gain. That is human thinking, though. Isn't God a personal God, concerned with each individual? Killing Murderer A may result in the "salvation" of Murderers B through Z but it's still kind of a downer for Murderer A.
I hear a lot here about how we shouldn't try to be nicer than God. I don't believe it would be possible to be nicer than God, I have to say I could be nicer than this without even trying.

I'm not trying to discredit your argument by changing the word, I merely want to know if you would agree with the statement with the changes.

As for the idea of God being a parent and we the children- which is it? Are we children in need of LOVING guidance who don't always know what is best for us or are we spiritual adults capable of making our decisions and qualified to make a clear-headed and informed choice about our lives and our after-lives? If we are children then execution is a monstrous perversion of justice in the name of punishment and correction. If we are adults than we have the perogative of living in the manner that we ourselves decide is moral and correct.

You do realize that a loving parent disciplines their children, don't you? And sometimes, if the child has done an abominable thing, a loving parent would deliver them to the authorities for even execution, because loving your children means doing what is right, no matter how much it hurts.

My question stands. What would you do when confronted with what seems like a moral contradiction in your God? We must use our own reason and logic to decide if something is or isn't from God, so what would you do if you were left with an Abraham's dilemma of your own? Would you forge ahead unquestioningly or would you pause and think that maybe this message isn't from on high after all?

It certainly depends on what it is. If I heard a voice telling me it was God, and I was to kill my child, I wouldn't believe it. And the reason for that is because of the Biblical story of Abraham. We know that God didn't actually want Abraham to kill Isaac, so God would not try that test again.

But I'll go ahead and give you a real life example of a time when I was faced with what I had thought was contrary to what God wanted. I read in the Bible where God wanted homosexuals to be executed. I couldn't believe that God would command such a thing. I mean, their sin was no worse than mine. However, after much prayer, study and fellowship, I found I was wrong, and I submitted to God, even though it still unsettles me.

P.S.
The execution of Queer A could result in the salvation of Queer A.

 

[Lighthouse]

I found those verses about the witnesses bringing the accused before the priests.

If a matter arises which is too hard for you to judge, between degrees of guilt for bloodshed, between one judgment or another, or between one punishment or another, matters of controversy within your gates, then you shall arise and go up to the place which the LORD your God chooses. And you shall come to the priests, the Levites, and to the judge there in those days, and inquire of them; they shall pronounce upon you the sentence of judgment. You shall do according to the sentence which they pronounce upon you in that place which the LORD chooses. And you shall be careful to do according to all that they order you. According to the sentence of the law in which they instruct you, according to the judgment which they tell you, you shall do; you shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left from the sentence which they pronounce upon you.
-Deuteronomy 17:8-11

Looks like I was right. You have to bring them before a judge as well. And since there are no longer any Levitical priests...

 

[PlastikBuddha]

I'm not trying to discredit your argument by changing the word, I merely want to know if you would agree with the statement with the changes.

Even in that situation I could be nicer than your God by allowing for things like repentance and rehabilitation- something you God allows to some sinners but not to others. And yes, it's still a downer for Murderer A.

You do realize that a loving parent disciplines their children, don't you?

Absoulutely. I discipline my children. I don't execute them.

And sometimes, if the child has done an abominable thing, a loving parent would deliver them to the authorities for even execution, because loving your children means doing what is right, no matter how much it hurts.

Malarkey. Loving your children does not mean killing them. I would think that would be obvious. You let me know how many parents agree with killing their kids for "their own good".

It certainly depends on what it is. If I heard a voice telling me it was God, and I was to kill my child, I wouldn't believe it. And the reason for that is because of the Biblical story of Abraham. We know that God didn't actually want Abraham to kill Isaac, so God would not try that test again.

You know that do you? So God sometimes gives people instructions he actually doesn't want carried out? Very interesting... How do you know which orders God really wants carried through and which are tests of your loyalty

But I'll go ahead and give you a real life example of a time when I was faced with what I had thought was contrary to what God wanted. I read in the Bible where God wanted homosexuals to be executed. I couldn't believe that God would command such a thing. I mean, their sin was no worse than mine. However, after much prayer, study and fellowship, I found I was wrong, and I submitted to God, even though it still unsettles me.

Yes, I've often encountered your obvious discomfort with the idea of executing homosexuals. It's a testament to your faith that you are willing to put aside your reluctance for the glory of the Lord.

P.S.
The execution of Queer A could result in the salvation of Queer A.

It's not really all that likely though, is it? The more likely result is that Queer A is sent to the lake of fire (in your world view, anyways). None of this answers my main question- are we children in need of discipline, or adults who can recieve the ultimate punishment?

 

[WizardofOz]

Hypothetical to any of the 25% or so who voted yes;

You go over to a friends home to discover him(her) engaging in homosexual activity; you witness the act itself.

Is is not then your RESPONSIBILITY to execute the homosexuals involved; as according to "God's will"? Or are you simply saying that the government should have such a law so that you may simply turn the homosexual in to the authorities for execution.

It just sounds like you want others to do to them what YOU "feel is right". You are choosing to live under the law of men while rejecting what you feel is God's current law by NOT executing a homosexual whom you caught in the act.

If the question, in the above context, is "Should homosexuals be given the death penalty?" you must answer "no" simply because there is no binding law OF MEN in which to carry out this sentence.

If the question where "should there be a law condemning homosexuals to execution for their acts?" then you could answer yes.

As Mystery and Lighthouse CONTINUALLY pointed out, it's not about SIN, it's about LAW/CRIME. Under our current system, there is no such law, and therefore no crime. Without a crime, what would we be executing homosexuals over?

Case closed

 

[WizardofOz]

We do not have a Godly government, so we are stuck with praying for our government and trying to teach and instruct people and make a difference the best we can. That does not include individuals murdering people. We are not condoning vigilanties.

Good point! We do not live in a theocracy!!!!!

So will YOU follow God's law under this constitutional monarchy or will you not follow God's law and instead follow the law's of men in your country?

Did God's law say "only execute them if your government allows it?" They lived under a different government system!!!!!

That is why your position is a contradiction. Did God not say respect your worldly government leaders?

Either

- you will follow what you believe to be God's law and execute homosexuals.
- you will ignore what you believe to be God's law and follow the laws of men.

 

[aikido7]

You've got submissive toward authority, a fundamentalist mindset, dogmatic manner, socially isolated and insular, fear of people different from themselves, hostile to minorities
uncritical toward dominating authority figures, prone to a constant sense of besiegement and panic, punitive and self-righteous.

These are followers of Jesus?

 

[Lighthouse]

Even in that situation I could be nicer than your God by allowing for things like repentance and rehabilitation- something you God allows to some sinners but not to others. And yes, it's still a downer for Murderer A.

Who said they are not allowed repentance? And how are repentance and rehabilitation two different things?

Absoulutely. I discipline my children. I don't execute them.

It's not your place to execute them. If they do something worthy of execution it is the government's place to execute them.

Malarkey. Loving your children does not mean killing them. I would think that would be obvious. You let me know how many parents agree with killing their kids for "their own good".

I didn't say anything about killing your own children. And executing someone is certainly not for their own good, it is for the good of others. But forcing someone to face what they've done, is good for them.

You know that do you? So God sometimes gives people instructions he actually doesn't want carried out? Very interesting... How do you know which orders God really wants carried through and which are tests of your loyalty

Some of them would be obvious, because He has done them before, and we have the stories. God would not do it again, because we know what He was doing when He did it before. And His character does not change. He also never contradicts Himself. God would not command me to go around killing murderers. He gave that command to governments, not to civilians. The only place I would have in it is after the government convicted and sentenced the murderer. Then, according to God's command, I would be allowed to participate in the execution, if it were around here. However, the law does not allow for that. Although God could command me to become an executioner. But He's already expressed a desire for me to do something else.

And though God would not command anyone to work outside the law as long as it did not contradict His higher desires, He would command us to worship Him, if the government outlawed it.

Yes, I've often encountered your obvious discomfort with the idea of executing homosexuals. It's a testament to your faith that you are willing to put aside your reluctance for the glory of the Lord.

It's not really all that likely though, is it? The more likely result is that Queer A is sent to the lake of fire (in your world view, anyways). None of this answers my main question- are we children in need of discipline, or adults who can recieve the ultimate punishment?

It's more likely than you want to realize.

We are adults.

Hypothetical to any of the 25% or so who voted yes;

You go over to a friends home to discover him(her) engaging in homosexual activity; you witness the act itself.

Is is not then your RESPONSIBILITY to execute the homosexuals involved; as according to "God's will"? Or are you simply saying that the government should have such a law so that you may simply turn the homosexual in to the authorities for execution.

Option 2. God commanded witnesses to bring the accused before judges. And then the witnesses were the first to throw stones.

It just sounds like you want others to do to them what YOU "feel is right". You are choosing to live under the law of men while rejecting what you feel is God's current law by NOT executing a homosexual whom you caught in the act.

See above.

If the question, in the above context, is "Should homosexuals be given the death penalty?" you must answer "no" simply because there is no binding law OF MEN in which to carry out this sentence.

You're a moron.

If the question where "should there be a law condemning homosexuals to execution for their acts?" then you could answer yes.

You're still a moron. Even though you got a bit of this right.

P.S.
The question was intended by the one who made the poll to ask if there should be such a law.

As Mystery and Lighthouse CONTINUALLY pointed out, it's not about SIN, it's about LAW/CRIME. Under our current system, there is no such law, and therefore no crime. Without a crime, what would we be executing homosexuals over?

Case closed

Again, you are a moron. The basis of this entire thing is that it should be a crime. And it is a crime against many things, even if it is not legally a crime in most countries in this world.

 

[PlastikBuddha]

Who said they are not allowed repentance? And how are repentance and rehabilitation two different things?

Death tends to put a damper on both processes. That's kind of what I'm driving at here.

It's not your place to execute them. If they do something worthy of execution it is the government's place to execute them.

The government is made up of ordinary human beings. They don't become something other when they take the king's schilling. What could a child do that warranted execution?

I didn't say anything about killing your own children. And executing someone is certainly not for their own good, it is for the good of others. But forcing someone to face what they've done, is good for them.

So it isn't about the individual then. That's human justice and has nothing to do with the divine. I guess I am nicer than God.

Some of them would be obvious, because He has done them before, and we have the stories. God would not do it again, because we know what He was doing when He did it before. And His character does not change. He also never contradicts Himself. God would not command me to go around killing murderers. He gave that command to governments, not to civilians. The only place I would have in it is after the government convicted and sentenced the murderer. Then, according to God's command, I would be allowed to participate in the execution, if it were around here. However, the law does not allow for that. Although God could command me to become an executioner. But He's already expressed a desire for me to do something else.

So you have to use your human reason to decide if something was a command from God, correct?

And though God would not command anyone to work outside the law as long as it did not contradict His higher desires, He would command us to worship Him, if the government outlawed it.

So God doesn't contradict himself, except when he does? Which is it- does God have commandments that supercede human law or not?

It's more likely than you want to realize.

We are adults.

If we are adults and God is a "gentleman" than we have the right and the responsibility of living according to our own moral code- in fact we MUST compare what we learn of God and his supposed commandments/desires for us with what we know of both human law and our own morality to see how they match up, correct? After all we can't be such "fools for Jesus" that we accept any nutjob who strolls up claiming to be the new messiah, can we?

 

[Lighthouse]

Death tends to put a damper on both processes. That's kind of what I'm driving at here.

That's what you think.

The government is made up of ordinary human beings. They don't become something other when they take the king's schilling. What could a child do that warranted execution?

I don't mean a small child. I mean an adult child. I thought that was clear.

So it isn't about the individual then. That's human justice and has nothing to do with the divine. I guess I am nicer than God.

Who isn't? I mean, really. Can you deny anyone entrance into His presence?

So you have to use your human reason to decide if something was a command from God, correct?

I have the Bible.

So God doesn't contradict himself, except when he does? Which is it- does God have commandments that supercede human law or not?

There should be no human laws. And God supersedes all of humanity. God has some laws that are higher than other laws. It all depends on how high the particular law of God is.

If we are adults and God is a "gentleman" than we have the right and the responsibility of living according to our own moral code- in fact we MUST compare what we learn of God and his supposed commandments/desires for us with what we know of both human law and our own morality to see how they match up, correct? After all we can't be such "fools for Jesus" that we accept any nutjob who strolls up claiming to be the new messiah, can we?

There should be no human law. And there will be no new Messiah.:nono:

 

[PlastikBuddha]

That's what you think.

Obviously. Are you saying you feel differently?

I don't mean a small child. I mean an adult child. I thought that was clear.

What is an adult child?

Who isn't? I mean, really. Can you deny anyone entrance into His presence?

Not forever. I can do my darndest, though. Isn't that what doctors are for?

I have the Bible.

But you have to use your reason to understand and apply what you read there.

There should be no human laws. And God supersedes all of humanity. God has some laws that are higher than other laws. It all depends on how high the particular law of God is.

There should only be human laws. If we have been seperated from God then it is normal and right that we should use our own mental faculties to govern ourselves rather than rely on an absentee governor who may or may not be coming back. Since people disagree over the interpretation, application, and even the veracity of these laws of God it is clear that we must rule ourselves.

There should be no human law. And there will be no new Messiah.:nono:

Reason is what you use to tell you that. It is what allows to seperate the false prophets from the real deal, correct? It is what allows you to prioritize these laws of God, no? Without reason faith becomes a species of insanity that leads to Kool-Aid town.

 

[Lighthouse]

Obviously. Are you saying you feel differently?

Yes. I am.

What is an adult child?

Anyone 20 years old or above, with parents.

Not forever. I can do my darndest, though. Isn't that what doctors are for?

No. That's His job. He can allow some, and disallow others. No one else has that authority.

But you have to use your reason to understand and apply what you read there.

No I don't. I use His reason and understanding.

There should only be human laws. If we have been seperated from God then it is normal and right that we should use our own mental faculties to govern ourselves rather than rely on an absentee governor who may or may not be coming back. Since people disagree over the interpretation, application, and even the veracity of these laws of God it is clear that we must rule ourselves.

He's not absent. And living by laws He has already laid out, could very well lead many more people to Him.

As for ruling ourselves, look what it has gotten us.

Reason is what you use to tell you that. It is what allows to seperate the false prophets from the real deal, correct? It is what allows you to prioritize these laws of God, no? Without reason faith becomes a species of insanity that leads to Kool-Aid town.

And?

 

[PlastikBuddha]

Yes. I am.

Then explain please.

Anyone 20 years old or above, with parents.

Everyone 20 years and above has parents- unless they are clones.

No. That's His job. He can allow some, and disallow others. No one else has that authority.

Baloney. What are you, a Christian Scientist? The "authority" to preserve life comes from having one.

No I don't. I use His reason and understanding.

No you don't. That's just smug semantics trying to seperate yourself from the herd. You use plain old human logic. If you can demonstrate otherwise I'm listening.

He's not absent.

Show him to me.

And living by laws He has already laid out, could very well lead many more people to Him.

Or it could lead us into a new Dark Age where faith eclipses reason and human life becomes expendable in the name of holiness. No thanks.

As for ruling ourselves, look what it has gotten us.

Yes- let's look. We've come from sparse populations of savage hunter-gatherers to a civilization that has put men on the moon and at least tries to maintain libery and equality for all. Pretty good, I'd say.

And?

:doh: According to your faith God does not want a race of automota, correct? We are required to use our minds. If you continue making your reason subservient to obedience then things like compassion and love become nothing more than words. Respect for the rights of the individual is lost. It is the ultimate primacy of the Law, and I don't think that's what you really stand for.

 

[Lighthouse]

Then explain please.

Explain what?

Everyone 20 years and above has parents- unless they are clones.

What if their parents are dead?

Baloney. What are you, a Christian Scientist? The "authority" to preserve life comes from having one.

You're a moron. When you are standing before God at the final judgment who has the authority to either allow or disallow you into Heaven?

No you don't. That's just smug semantics trying to seperate yourself from the herd. You use plain old human logic. If you can demonstrate otherwise I'm listening.

Human logic is illogical.

Show him to me.

Look for Him.

Or it could lead us into a new Dark Age where faith eclipses reason and human life becomes expendable in the name of holiness. No thanks.

The only human life that is expendable are the lives of those who have forfeited their right to life.

Yes- let's look. We've come from sparse populations of savage hunter-gatherers to a civilization that has put men on the moon and at least tries to maintain libery and equality for all. Pretty good, I'd say.

And 50 Million innocent unborn children have been legally murdered in the past 40 years. Sexual deviants parade their filth and perversion in the streets, and the government celebrates their "right" to do so. Child molesters are never sentenced to death or life in prison, allowed to go free and molest again.

:doh: According to your faith God does not want a race of automota, correct? We are required to use our minds. If you continue making your reason subservient to obedience then things like compassion and love become nothing more than words. Respect for the rights of the individual is lost. It is the ultimate primacy of the Law, and I don't think that's what you really stand for.

God is love. Submitting to Him is submitting to perfect love.

 

[PlastikBuddha]

Explain what?

How someone can either repent or be rehabilitated from beyond the graaaaaaaaave!

What if their parents are dead?

Still parents. If they can repent from the grave why not parent?

You're a moron.

I'm amazed you were able to restrain yourself for this long. Way to go! :thumb:

When you are standing before God at the final judgment who has the authority to either allow or disallow you into Heaven?

Nobody. I do not submit to the authority of any half-baked creator who can't be bothered to stop his idiot children from killing one another over trivialities. Seriously- you know I'm an agnostic, why would I would care what authority you claim your hypothetical creator has over REAL issues and REAL lives? If your God wants fags dead he can bloody well come and kill them himself. I expect human beings to treat others with the respect and tolerance of the Golden Rule.

Human logic is illogical.

Did you use human logic to reach that conclusion? It's all we've got, bud. If you have access to something better, prove it with more than Hallmark card platitudes.

Look for Him.

I've been looking my entire life and seen diddley-squat. I think I'll take the responsibility for my life and my actions upon myself instead of relying on fictions, fairy-tales, and philosophies.

The only human life that is expendable are the lives of those who have forfeited their right to life.

By doing things you disagree with. Gotcha. So anyone who you says needs to die is expendable. Super.

And 50 Million innocent unborn children have been legally murdered in the past 40 years.

Is that more or less than under the old law do you think? Don't blame that one on the "Godless"- like all other animals humans have been killing their young for as long as they've been having them. It went on ancient times, yet Jesus didn't see fit to even mention it.

Sexual deviants parade their filth and perversion in the streets, and the government celebrates their "right" to do so.

They also celebrate your "right" to practice your superstition. Freedom of speech and expression covers everyone, not just the ones you like. If you don't like it, go to Saudi Arabia.

Child molesters are never sentenced to death or life in prison, allowed to go free and molest again.

God is love. Submitting to Him is submitting to perfect love.

Your God is so far from perfect love it astonishes me that you can say that with a straight face. Perfect love never gives up on the object of its love and is NEVER vindicitive. Even I, sinner that I am, can demonstrate more perfect love than your God.

 

[S†ephen]

Nobody. I do not submit to the authority of any half-baked creator who can't be bothered to stop his idiot children from killing one another over trivialities. Seriously- you know I'm an agnostic, why would I would care what authority you claim your hypothetical creator has over REAL issues and REAL lives? If your God wants fags dead he can bloody well come and kill them himself. I expect human beings to treat others with the respect and tolerance of the Golden Rule.

Brilliantly stated. He doesn't want them dead. He wants them to be changed for the better. If you want a clear view of God don't go to Lighthouse.

I've been looking my entire life and seen diddley-squat. I think I'll take the responsibility for my life and my actions upon myself instead of relying on fictions, fairy-tales, and philosophies.

have you considered what originally gave you the power to perform said actions?

They also celebrate your "right" to practice your superstition. Freedom of speech and expression covers everyone, not just the ones you like. If you don't like it, go to Saudi Arabia.

Exactly. When a homosexual molests me I'll shoot him. Until then he can do as he pleases even though I think it's sick.

Your God is so far from perfect love it astonishes me that you can say that with a straight face. Perfect love never gives up on the object of its love and is NEVER vindicitive. Even I, sinner that I am, can demonstrate more perfect love than your God.

YES! Which is why I don't support the death penalty. I will never give up on trying to convert you, but I will never lower myself to calling you names. I do truly care about you and your soul even though I disagree with you.

 

[Mumei]

Exactly. When a homosexual molests me I'll shoot him. Until then he can do as he pleases even though I think it's sick.

You could always just punch him. You know, save yourself the trouble of the trial and jail time. :chew:

 

[S†ephen]

You could always just punch him. You know, save yourself the trouble of the trial and jail time. :chew:

I'll get it anyway with the excuse for a government we have nowadays.

 

[Mumei]

I'll get it anyway with the excuse for a government we have nowadays.

Oh, no. Just use your fists and you won't get nearly as much.

 

[S†ephen]

Oh, no. Just use your fists and you won't get nearly as much.

No... if I'm getting molested I'm probably gonna kill 'em.